Xwu....masks simply don't work. So they cannot work more or less in a plane, supermarket or water closet (WC). If the "old ladies" want to wear them in the WC, then they are free to do so.
Xwu....masks simply don't work. So they cannot work more or less in a plane, supermarket or water closet (WC). If the "old ladies" want to wear them in the WC, then they are free to do so.
We must tell the surgeons who wear them in the Operating theatres for years and years they have been wearing them for no reason at all.. Only an anti vaxxer would make such a idiotic comment.
My first international trip after the borders opened up was to Singapore. It was just before Singapore’s extensive testing requirements eased and the infection rate in country was quite high at the time so I was very cautious and compliant with all the testing and mask rules in place. Wearing a mask was a minor inconvenience and I returned home Covid free.
Home for a week then went on a family holiday to Queensland. We let down our guard during that time. Masks were rarely seen so we followed what seemed to be the norm, only wearing on public transport, airports and on planes. Don’t know if it was the Uber driver, the guy in the lift, the waiter at the restaurant or the hotel receptionist but we were positive a day after getting back home.
To summarise my rant. Just my personal opinion, masks work. Probably not 100% but in close contact with others, its a bit of a lottery if you choose to go without. You may not get Covid (or the flu or some other ailment) but you may and if it is Covid and you are in a foreign country with strict rules you may be locked up in a quarantine facility or gravely ill in a 3rd world hospital. Good luck with that!
Xwu....masks simply don't work. So they cannot work more or less in a plane, supermarket or water closet (WC). If the "old ladies" want to wear them in the WC, then they are free to do so.
@ GoRobin
You are entitled to have your own view, in the context you want to choose.
But doesn't mean you are right for most situations or statistically.
The protective effect of masks is not so obvious to those in Australia but the evidence is still there. Certainly mask wearing should not be the sole measure to combat infection if the preventive measures is to be maximised. No reasonable person would say that wearing a mask will guarantee you would get infected. Certainly good protection with wearing correct fitting proper quality masks does make the difference in other countries whose population is ravaged by the pandemic including the EU, UK and US.
The number of healthcare professionals being sick from COVID in UK and the US because they cannot secure clean and appropriate protection equipment* is well publicised.
* for a few months, doctors and nurses are told to wash and reuse their masks because of shortages, as if working long shifts in PPE is not bad enough
But until the mask mandate is removed, those who don't wear the masks when required as part of T&C should not be surprised if they experience denial of service, whenever the rules are enforced.
We know that COVID-19 infection affects the most in older or immunocompromised people.
While some young people get sick, and may die from the infection, most young people recover or does not feel sick even when infected.
This does not change whether or not the person is vaccinated (ie vaccination may reduce the chance of infection, and reduce the severity of infection, but still most vaccinated people who dies from COVID are still older or immunocompromised people, not young people)
Hence when they say “we are all in together” when the COVID-19 restriction comes in 2020, the idea is everyone supports everyone rather than isolating and discriminating just those who are at risk of dying from COVID, which is again the older or immunocompromised people.
Australia could have carried on business as usual, and just quarantine those at risk people in camps and home. Restrict their contact with the greater world.
Actually this is more or less what Sweden did, and what UK tried to do.
The outrage from this made it clear that this approach was politically suicidal in UK and Australia (particularly when participation rate of voting is probably higher in older people than other age groups, sorry for this rather cynical remark)
The vaccination program simply an effort to do what we can to reduce the infection rate and severity and an excuse to return to normal. I can't fault that and like most people I want to return to pre COVID as well.
Whatever the reason, the fact is still when people are in close proximity for a period of time, infectious disease will occur easily. Being previously in the military, I know the consequence of close contact very well when chicken pox and other infection occur.
And the fact is the vaccines AUS, EU, UK US are heavily reliant on (mRNA vaccines) have limited protection for those who are at risk, effectively 6 months, the call for those people to have their boosters are real and urgent, but most are us are fatigue from COVID messaging and understandably we are selectively shutting off those pleas.
Another fact is that those people who are sick and infectious, carry on their duties and work due to personal obligations or economic reasons. Worse still, they may or many not know their are infectious but still go around without wearing masks in crowded areas. If these people wears mask it will reduce spread but not totally because conventional masks we buy from shops does not stop aerosol, but definitely better than going maskless.
Those who support or demand the COVID restrictions in 2020, and now touting “mask is useless” ideology should probably consider this context.
Those who never support mask and movement restrictions in 2020 as effective will start to nit pick what I wrote here but they would never allowed themselves to be convinced by inconvenient facts
The question here is not if masks are worth wearing. If you believe they reduce the spread of an airborne virus or if you believe they don't, you will find evidence to suit your position.
The question now is about mandates.
People need to take responsibility for themselves. If you are immunocompromised, wear a mask or don't travel. It is not others responsibility to care for you.
If we take the view that we all take precautions to protect the vulnerable we will never progress at anything. Humans have made unbelievable strides in all forms of life through incredible people pushing boundaries. If we regress to being scared of any type of risk, we are dying as a race.
Government intervention in almost all cases of life is bad.
How many incredible humans are politicians? In most cases they make bad decisions. Mandates are one such decision.
Can’t fault your logic as you have laid out in your context, which I agree mostly.
However I would ask you to clarify if you meant the mask mandate on airplanes was a bad decision from beginning in 2020 until now?
or did you mean that now that everyone were given an opportunity for at least 6 months to be vaccinated (more than 12 months for those at risk), deciding to continue the mask mandate on airplanes is a bad decision?
Can’t fault your logic as you have laid out in your context, which I agree mostly.
However I would ask you to clarify if you meant the mask mandate on airplanes was a bad decision from beginning in 2020 until now?
or did you mean that now that everyone were given an opportunity for at least 6 months to be vaccinated (more than 12 months for those at risk), deciding to continue the mask mandate on airplanes is a bad decision?
Or something else?
The original mask mandate is one of the very few I accepted, although if you remember right at the start, the Victorian Government said no need to introduce masks as they had little benefit, only to reverse that thinking a little later.
To me, and this is mostly a Victorian State view, to lock people in their homes from 8pm to 5am each day/night, stop children who are forced away from school and to stay inside, apart from a small window of exercise, see playgrounds taped up and off limits and then to also see many, many Victorians not allowed to enter their own state, their own homes for weeks, nearly months at a time are not just bad decisions but seemingly criminal. The list of bad decisions is nearly as long as the amount of decisions made. Mostly politically motivated.
Can’t fault your logic as you have laid out in your context, which I agree mostly.
However I would ask you to clarify if you meant the mask mandate on airplanes was a bad decision from beginning in 2020 until now?
or did you mean that now that everyone were given an opportunity for at least 6 months to be vaccinated (more than 12 months for those at risk), deciding to continue the mask mandate on airplanes is a bad decision?
Or something else?
The original mask mandate is one of the very few I accepted, although if you remember right at the start, the Victorian Government said no need to introduce masks as they had little benefit, only to reverse that thinking a little later.
To me, and this is mostly a Victorian State view, to lock people in their homes from 8pm to 5am each day/night, stop children who are forced away from school and to stay inside, apart from a small window of exercise, see playgrounds taped up and off limits and then to also see many, many Victorians not allowed to enter their own state, their own homes for weeks, nearly months at a time are not just bad decisions but seemingly criminal. The list of bad decisions is nearly as long as the amount of decisions made. Mostly politically motivated.
The World Health Organisation in 2020 originally said the mask didn’t work. They soon reversed their advisory a few months later. I remembered that as I was travelling back to Australia with the Commonwealth returning travellers isolation rules changing every few days. Paid AUD 1000 extra to change my flights, whinging about it all the way but nothing like the tens of thousands of dollars people have to pay for the next 18 months. Have to scratch around for masks since the Chinese experience is showing their quarantine measures work while the Italians were dying in numbers.
I agree that at its peak the Victorian restrictions are extreme but you may recall also they tried to initially isolate certain communities and then blanket restriction only to find that the numbers are still skyrocketing, hence the rules become more and more extreme (Sydney ended up going similar length in mid last year) when it becomes apparent some people are simply not well informed/educated to make good judgement despite the fact they are precisely the one who were allowed to move around while the rest of the community stays home. I am not saying the mandates are ok, but just pointing out the fact that in most cases the government did try a softer approach then change tack when numbers shows things are not doing well (doesn’t help when it takes one week to know if something works or not)
In the second lockdown in Victoria 9 months later, the government cannot afford to allow numbers to sky rocket another time, so the decision to go hard is definitely a political one, but it’s either that or start slow again knowing more people will get infected and die if the infection go out of control again with similarly relaxed measures.
Not defending the government or Dan And but just trying to see things from their perspective at the time.
Again I understand where you are coming from. The Chinese in Shanghai would have agree with you.
XWu and Richard W. You guys have both shown evidence which shows WHO and Vic Government completely changed their recommendation on the mask. They like to go on about science and that stuff but the science of masks does not just change as it suits them. There is zero science here full stop and your own comments introducing these examples reflect that. It completely shows the masks are completely useless and they introduced the mandates to see how far they could push the population or 'cattle'. They have gotten completely away with it and people are now so brainwashed they will do whatever these criminal, globalist organisations and governments tell them to do without a second thought.
Masks = either blind faith or woo woo science. Was flying between Frankfurt and London 3 weeks ago. Mask not required in Frankfurt airport. But on boarding the flight masks required. On crossing the Channel, masks discarded by all including cabin staff. There's the application of woo woo science. Or perhaps the faithful just lost their faith mid flight.
blaird...only idiots would be thinking that surgeons operate on planes!
Check out Orbis International for surgeons that work on a plane. Your comment that masks dont work, is why I referred to surgeons who wear them in an operating environment. Of course each side has their evidence that something does or doesnt work.
XWu and Richard W. You guys have both shown evidence which shows WHO and Vic Government completely changed their recommendation on the mask. They like to go on about science and that stuff but the science of masks does not just change as it suits them. There is zero science here full stop and your own comments introducing these examples reflect that. It completely shows the masks are completely useless and they introduced the mandates to see how far they could push the population or 'cattle'. They have gotten completely away with it and people are now so brainwashed they will do whatever these criminal, globalist organisations and governments tell them to do without a second thought.
787 your statement of zero science is strange given that there are numerous scientific studies easily goggleable. A Forbes Article from February this year reports a 50% effectiveness for masks in general and (no surprises) an 87% effectiveness for an N95. No surprises on what type of mask I use) The other point is that masks not only stop you catching the bug (which perhaps is your choice) but also stops you spreading it, hence the public health benefit and the reason for mask mandates. Where they should apply is a public health decision but since the lifting of them in most circumstances the rates of infections reported are close to the highest in the world, and hospitals are stretched when a flu season is now added. From colleagues who have caught the bug after three vaccine shots, it is still not much fun (still very crook for a week or more) and so a disease best avoided.
Rc
Rc
Member since 19 Oct 2019
Total posts 13
GoRobin
GoRobin
Member since 07 May 2020
Total posts 113
Xwu....masks simply don't work. So they cannot work more or less in a plane, supermarket or water closet (WC). If the "old ladies" want to wear them in the WC, then they are free to do so.
blaird
blaird
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 01 Aug 2013
Total posts 36
Originally Posted by GoRobin
Xwu....masks simply don't work. So they cannot work more or less in a plane, supermarket or water closet (WC). If the "old ladies" want to wear them in the WC, then they are free to do so.
APACPete
APACPete
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 09 Jun 2017
Total posts 59
Well said Xwu.
My first international trip after the borders opened up was to Singapore. It was just before Singapore’s extensive testing requirements eased and the infection rate in country was quite high at the time so I was very cautious and compliant with all the testing and mask rules in place. Wearing a mask was a minor inconvenience and I returned home Covid free.
Home for a week then went on a family holiday to Queensland. We let down our guard during that time. Masks were rarely seen so we followed what seemed to be the norm, only wearing on public transport, airports and on planes. Don’t know if it was the Uber driver, the guy in the lift, the waiter at the restaurant or the hotel receptionist but we were positive a day after getting back home.
To summarise my rant. Just my personal opinion, masks work. Probably not 100% but in close contact with others, its a bit of a lottery if you choose to go without. You may not get Covid (or the flu or some other ailment) but you may and if it is Covid and you are in a foreign country with strict rules you may be locked up in a quarantine facility or gravely ill in a 3rd world hospital. Good luck with that!
XWu
XWu
Member since 09 May 2020
Total posts 197
Originally Posted by GoRobin
Xwu....masks simply don't work. So they cannot work more or less in a plane, supermarket or water closet (WC). If the "old ladies" want to wear them in the WC, then they are free to do so.
You are entitled to have your own view, in the context you want to choose.
But doesn't mean you are right for most situations or statistically.
The protective effect of masks is not so obvious to those in Australia but the evidence is still there. Certainly mask wearing should not be the sole measure to combat infection if the preventive measures is to be maximised. No reasonable person would say that wearing a mask will guarantee you would get infected. Certainly good protection with wearing correct fitting proper quality masks does make the difference in other countries whose population is ravaged by the pandemic including the EU, UK and US.
The number of healthcare professionals being sick from COVID in UK and the US because they cannot secure clean and appropriate protection equipment* is well publicised.
* for a few months, doctors and nurses are told to wash and reuse their masks because of shortages, as if working long shifts in PPE is not bad enough
But until the mask mandate is removed, those who don't wear the masks when required as part of T&C should not be surprised if they experience denial of service, whenever the rules are enforced.
XWu
XWu
Member since 09 May 2020
Total posts 197
Just a general comment about some posts:
We know that COVID-19 infection affects the most in older or immunocompromised people.
While some young people get sick, and may die from the infection, most young people recover or does not feel sick even when infected.
This does not change whether or not the person is vaccinated (ie vaccination may reduce the chance of infection, and reduce the severity of infection, but still most vaccinated people who dies from COVID are still older or immunocompromised people, not young people)
Hence when they say “we are all in together” when the COVID-19 restriction comes in 2020, the idea is everyone supports everyone rather than isolating and discriminating just those who are at risk of dying from COVID, which is again the older or immunocompromised people.
Australia could have carried on business as usual, and just quarantine those at risk people in camps and home. Restrict their contact with the greater world.
Actually this is more or less what Sweden did, and what UK tried to do.
The outrage from this made it clear that this approach was politically suicidal in UK and Australia (particularly when participation rate of voting is probably higher in older people than other age groups, sorry for this rather cynical remark)
The vaccination program simply an effort to do what we can to reduce the infection rate and severity and an excuse to return to normal. I can't fault that and like most people I want to return to pre COVID as well.
Whatever the reason, the fact is still when people are in close proximity for a period of time, infectious disease will occur easily. Being previously in the military, I know the consequence of close contact very well when chicken pox and other infection occur.
And the fact is the vaccines AUS, EU, UK US are heavily reliant on (mRNA vaccines) have limited protection for those who are at risk, effectively 6 months, the call for those people to have their boosters are real and urgent, but most are us are fatigue from COVID messaging and understandably we are selectively shutting off those pleas.
Another fact is that those people who are sick and infectious, carry on their duties and work due to personal obligations or economic reasons. Worse still, they may or many not know their are infectious but still go around without wearing masks in crowded areas. If these people wears mask it will reduce spread but not totally because conventional masks we buy from shops does not stop aerosol, but definitely better than going maskless.
Those who support or demand the COVID restrictions in 2020, and now touting “mask is useless” ideology should probably consider this context.
Those who never support mask and movement restrictions in 2020 as effective will start to nit pick what I wrote here but they would never allowed themselves to be convinced by inconvenient facts
Ok, do your worst
Richard W
Richard W
Singapore Airlines - KrisFlyer
Member since 12 Apr 2017
Total posts 88
The question here is not if masks are worth wearing. If you believe they reduce the spread of an airborne virus or if you believe they don't, you will find evidence to suit your position.
The question now is about mandates.
People need to take responsibility for themselves. If you are immunocompromised, wear a mask or don't travel. It is not others responsibility to care for you.
If we take the view that we all take precautions to protect the vulnerable we will never progress at anything. Humans have made unbelievable strides in all forms of life through incredible people pushing boundaries. If we regress to being scared of any type of risk, we are dying as a race.
Government intervention in almost all cases of life is bad.
How many incredible humans are politicians? In most cases they make bad decisions. Mandates are one such decision.
XWu
XWu
Member since 09 May 2020
Total posts 197
@ Richard W
Can’t fault your logic as you have laid out in your context, which I agree mostly.
However I would ask you to clarify if you meant the mask mandate on airplanes was a bad decision from beginning in 2020 until now?
or did you mean that now that everyone were given an opportunity for at least 6 months to be vaccinated (more than 12 months for those at risk), deciding to continue the mask mandate on airplanes is a bad decision?
Or something else?
Richard W
Richard W
Singapore Airlines - KrisFlyer
Member since 12 Apr 2017
Total posts 88
Originally Posted by XWu
@ Richard W
Can’t fault your logic as you have laid out in your context, which I agree mostly.
However I would ask you to clarify if you meant the mask mandate on airplanes was a bad decision from beginning in 2020 until now?
or did you mean that now that everyone were given an opportunity for at least 6 months to be vaccinated (more than 12 months for those at risk), deciding to continue the mask mandate on airplanes is a bad decision?
Or something else?
To me, and this is mostly a Victorian State view, to lock people in their homes from 8pm to 5am each day/night, stop children who are forced away from school and to stay inside, apart from a small window of exercise, see playgrounds taped up and off limits and then to also see many, many Victorians not allowed to enter their own state, their own homes for weeks, nearly months at a time are not just bad decisions but seemingly criminal.
The list of bad decisions is nearly as long as the amount of decisions made. Mostly politically motivated.
XWu
XWu
Member since 09 May 2020
Total posts 197
Originally Posted by Richard W
Originally Posted by XWu
@ Richard W
Can’t fault your logic as you have laid out in your context, which I agree mostly.
However I would ask you to clarify if you meant the mask mandate on airplanes was a bad decision from beginning in 2020 until now?
or did you mean that now that everyone were given an opportunity for at least 6 months to be vaccinated (more than 12 months for those at risk), deciding to continue the mask mandate on airplanes is a bad decision?
Or something else?
To me, and this is mostly a Victorian State view, to lock people in their homes from 8pm to 5am each day/night, stop children who are forced away from school and to stay inside, apart from a small window of exercise, see playgrounds taped up and off limits and then to also see many, many Victorians not allowed to enter their own state, their own homes for weeks, nearly months at a time are not just bad decisions but seemingly criminal.
The list of bad decisions is nearly as long as the amount of decisions made. Mostly politically motivated.
I agree that at its peak the Victorian restrictions are extreme but you may recall also they tried to initially isolate certain communities and then blanket restriction only to find that the numbers are still skyrocketing, hence the rules become more and more extreme (Sydney ended up going similar length in mid last year) when it becomes apparent some people are simply not well informed/educated to make good judgement despite the fact they are precisely the one who were allowed to move around while the rest of the community stays home. I am not saying the mandates are ok, but just pointing out the fact that in most cases the government did try a softer approach then change tack when numbers shows things are not doing well (doesn’t help when it takes one week to know if something works or not)
In the second lockdown in Victoria 9 months later, the government cannot afford to allow numbers to sky rocket another time, so the decision to go hard is definitely a political one, but it’s either that or start slow again knowing more people will get infected and die if the infection go out of control again with similarly relaxed measures.
Not defending the government or Dan And but just trying to see things from their perspective at the time.
Again I understand where you are coming from. The Chinese in Shanghai would have agree with you.
787boeing
787boeing
Member since 26 Aug 2019
Total posts 17
XWu and Richard W. You guys have both shown evidence which shows WHO and Vic Government completely changed their recommendation on the mask. They like to go on about science and that stuff but the science of masks does not just change as it suits them. There is zero science here full stop and your own comments introducing these examples reflect that. It completely shows the masks are completely useless and they introduced the mandates to see how far they could push the population or 'cattle'. They have gotten completely away with it and people are now so brainwashed they will do whatever these criminal, globalist organisations and governments tell them to do without a second thought.
GoRobin
GoRobin
Member since 07 May 2020
Total posts 113
Masks = either blind faith or woo woo science. Was flying between Frankfurt and London 3 weeks ago. Mask not required in Frankfurt airport. But on boarding the flight masks required. On crossing the Channel, masks discarded by all including cabin staff. There's the application of woo woo science. Or perhaps the faithful just lost their faith mid flight.
GoRobin
GoRobin
Member since 07 May 2020
Total posts 113
blaird
blaird
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 01 Aug 2013
Total posts 36
Originally Posted by GoRobin
patrickk
patrickk
Qantas
Member since 19 Apr 2012
Total posts 737
Originally Posted by 787boeing
XWu and Richard W. You guys have both shown evidence which shows WHO and Vic Government completely changed their recommendation on the mask. They like to go on about science and that stuff but the science of masks does not just change as it suits them. There is zero science here full stop and your own comments introducing these examples reflect that. It completely shows the masks are completely useless and they introduced the mandates to see how far they could push the population or 'cattle'. They have gotten completely away with it and people are now so brainwashed they will do whatever these criminal, globalist organisations and governments tell them to do without a second thought.