Qantas, Virgin restart flights with $165m Govt subsidy
A 'minimum domestic network' operated by Qantas and Virgin will be underwritten by the Australian government.
By David Flynn, April 17 2020
Qantas and Virgin Australia are ramping up their domestic flights with a $165 million assist from Federal Government putting some meat back onto the skeleton schedule adopted by both airlines just prior to Easter.
Under the package, Qantas and Virgin will reinstate over 220 flights per week on routes serving all capital cities and 36 larger regional centres across all states and territories to create what's called a 'minimum domestic network'.
The first restarted flights will take wing on Friday April 17, with planes now rolling out of the hangar and hundreds of pilots, cabin and ground crews clocking back in after being stood down.
The network will stand for eight weeks, until June 7, 2020, with airlines and the federal government reviewing the schedule before it ends to consider if an extension is warranted.
In addition to reconnecting Australia's capital cities, the regional network focuses on towns that are more than two hours’ drive from key transportation hubs.
"We are ensuring secure and affordable access for passengers who need to travel... as well as supporting the movement of essential freight such as critical medicine and personal protective equipment," Deputy Prime Minister and Transport Minister Michael McCormack said.
However, McCormack repeated that "Australians are asked to stay home unless absolutely necessary."
Although the government funding will ensure the restarted flights don’t operate at a loss, the airlines won’t see a profit either – this ‘minimum domestic network’ is positioned as a break-even affair.
"While travel restrictions mean most passenger flights are not commercially viable at the moment, there remains a need for some essential travel – particularly given the distances between most Australian cities," a Qantas spokesperson said.
Flights will be sold as normal commercial fares, with passengers earning the appropriate serve of frequent flyer points and status credits, although travellers should expect a scaled-back meal service and social distancing in seat assignments.
In addition to carrying passengers, the flights will also boost overall freight capacity, which has fallen significantly as Australia's commercial air networks have shrunk.
Qantas' new domestic schedule
Qantas will roll out 164 flights per week to all capital cities plus 36 regional destinations, using a mix of Qantas Boeing 737s and Airbus A330s, QantasLink Dash 8 turboprops and Jetstar Airbus A320s.
The primary 'trunk routes' are:
- Sydney – Adelaide
- Sydney – Brisbane
- Sydney – Canberra
- Sydney – Melbourne
- Sydney – Perth
- Melbourne – Adelaide
- Melbourne – Brisbane
- Melbourne – Canberra
- Melbourne – Hobart
- Melbourne – Perth
The regional routes are:
New South Wales
- Albury – Sydney
- Armidale – Sydney
- Ballina – Sydney
- Coffs Harbour – Sydney
- Dubbo – Sydney
- Lord Howe Island – Sydney
- Tamworth – Sydney
- Wagga Wagga – Sydney
Victoria & Tasmania
- Melbourne – Mildura
- Melbourne – Launceston
Queensland
- Brisbane – Cairns
- Brisbane – Emerald
- Brisbane – Gladstone
- Brisbane – Mt Isa
- Brisbane – Longreach
- Brisbane – Mackay
- Brisbane – Moranbah
- Brisbane – Roma
- Brisbane – Rockhampton
- Brisbane – Townsville
- Cloncurry – Mt Isa
- Cloncurry – Townsville
- Cairns – Horne Island
- Cairns – Townsville
- Cairns – Weipa
- Charleville – Roma
- Mt Isa – Townsville
- Mackay – Rockhampton
- Mackay – Townsville
- Townsville – Rockhampton
South Australia
- Adelaide – Kangaroo Island
- Adelaide – Port Lincoln
- Adelaide – Whyalla
Northern Territory
- Alice Springs – Darwin
- Alice Springs – Sydney
- Brisbane – Darwin
Western Australia
- Newman – Perth
- Broome – Perth
- Geraldton – Perth
- Kalgoorlie – Perth
- Learmonth – Perth
- Port Hedland – Perth
- Karratha – Perth
Virgin Australia's new domestic schedule
Virgin Australia will fly 64 return services each week between April 17 and June 7.
- Sydney – Melbourne (seven return services per week)
- Sydney – Brisbane (seven return services per week)
- Sydney – Gold Coast (three return services per week)
- Canberra – Melbourne (three return services per week)
- Melbourne – Adelaide (three return services per week)
- Melbourne – Brisbane (seven return services per week)
- Melbourne – Canberra (three return services per week)
- Melbourne – Perth (seven return services per week)
- Melbourne – Sydney (seven return services per week)
- Brisbane – Melbourne (seven return services per week)
- Brisbane – Sydney (seven return services per week)
- Brisbane – Cairns (three return services per week)
- Brisbane – Mackay (five return services per week)
- Brisbane – Rockhampton (three return services per week)
- Brisbane – Townsville (three return services per week)
- Adelaide – Melbourne (three return services per week)
- Perth – Melbourne (seven return services per week)
- Perth – Broome (three return services per week)
- Perth – Port Hedland (two return services per week)
- Perth – Newman (two return services per week)
- Perth – Karratha (two return services per week)
- Perth – Kununurra (two return services per week)
- Perth – Kalgoorlie (two return services per week)
To check the days on which those flights operate, visit travel.virginaustralia.com.
Virgin Australia says "passengers seeking to travel between 17-29 April inclusive will be provided with additional flexibility, including the ability to rebook their ticket to any day or service within that period with any applicable fare differences waived."
PREVIOUS [April 12, 2020] | The Federal Government is preparing to subsidise Qantas and Virgin Australia for domestic flights, following a drastic reduction in services by both airlines in recent days.
Both airlines have been in discussions with Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack, who serves as Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development, over the establishment of what's described as a "minimum domestic network" intended to bring more flights back to more cities and regional towns for the purpose of essential travel.
McCormack has confirmed ongoing discussions with the CEOs of Qantas and Virgin to ensure Australians returning from overseas can get home once they complete the mandatory 14 day quarantine period at their point of entry into the country, adding that "we also need, of course, to transfer people around from capital city to capital city.
More flights, less cash burn
Qantas has pared its domestic operations to the bone, with CEO Alan Joyce telling staff on Wednesday April 8 "for the next few weeks we’ll essentially be flying three aircraft – a Qantas 737, a Jetstar A320 and a QantasLink Dash 8 – so that will be the entire domestic network."
During the same briefing, Joyce and Qantas Domestic CEO Andrew David both flagged the government's involvement in underwriting a "minimum network".
David said the airline was prepared to "make further reductions on top of the reductions we’ve already made, if those services continue to burn cash, but in the meantime we continue to engage with the government to get a minimum network in place, that they agree to underwrite in the same way they’ve done with the international network."
Joyce added that Qantas "will still be burning some cash for operating that network. It's all about minimising that cash burn until the government has that minimum network in place, and then we're hopeful the network can be a bit bigger than that. It won't be much bigger than that, but it will be a bit bigger than that going forward and we won't be burning cash operating it."
Virgin pushes for equal treatment
It's uncertain if the government's intention was for Qantas to be the sole airline to operate this network, but Virgin Australia is also in the ring.
In a message to staff on a private Virgin Australia Facebook group posted this evening, and seen by Executive Traveller, CEO Paul Scurrah noted "I am aware that Qantas communicated to their people that they had been 'directed' by the Australian Government to operate a 'minimum domestic network'."
"Upon hearing this I immediately contacted the Deputy Prime Minister, who denied any such deal was in place and that both airlines will be treated equally."
"The good news is that he called me tonight to say we will be offered the opportunity to operate a 'minimum domestic network' subsidised by the Australian Government," Scurrah continued. "We will be in discussions with the Australian Government tomorrow to work through the detail."
Subsidised flights add to a $1bn rescue plan
Virgin's own timetable now consists of a single return flight between Sydney and Melbourne, which runs once per day except for Saturdays, as the airline stretches to preserve its dwindling cash balance in the face of what Chief Operations Office Stuart Aggs described as "little to no demand."
The airline has also approached the Federal Government for a $1.4 billion bailout.
Deputy PM McCormack last Thursday cited the "significantly reduced" networks of both Qantas and Virgin Australia, and said "we continue to talk to airline executives on a regular basis as we navigate this unprecedented situation.”
The government has already pledged more than $1 billion in support to Australia's aviation sector, including a $298m lifeline for regional airlines and a $715m waiver of fuel excise and government charges.
Executive Traveller has approached Qantas, Virgin Australia and the Department of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development for comment.
David Flynn is the Editor-in-Chief of Executive Traveller and a bit of a travel tragic with a weakness for good coffee, shopping and lychee martinis.
18 Aug 2015
Total posts 55
There should be no bail out for an international company!
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
@clarkysdonga - sorry that seems to be a very simplistic position which doesn't take in the bigger picture. Government money should be used to advance the national interest... I don't think many people can argue that it is in Australia's interest to only have one domestic carrier.
Jetstar Airways - Qantas Frequent Flyer
14 Jan 2017
Total posts 67
It would be in Australia's interest to have two Australian owned domestic airlines. Not sure it is as much in the national interest to be propping up foreign state owned enterprises with tax payers dollars. We have to remember the average Australia doesn't fly for business or in business nor do they fly often. While less competition would affect their discretionary holiday spending it would hardly be a national interest situation to them. As for the corporate people they should have faith in a competitive market.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Aug 2017
Total posts 84
Worldwide, it's looking increasingly likely that the airlines that receive government assistance (the American airlines, Air NZ, Singapore, Alitalia, Qatar etc etc) will survive, and those that don't, won't. Hopefully those in government who make those decisions will be of sufficient intelligence to base their decisions on the national interest, and not on the percentage of foreign ownership. Qantas, by the way, was 35% foreign-owned as of October 2019, with provision for foreign ownership to be as high as 49%. If the government bails out Qantas, should it only give Qantas 65% or 51% of what it needs to survive based on its percentage of foreign ownership?
@clarkysdonga Have a think about the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme in Australia, which subsidises many foreign-owned drug companies so that Australians can have access to affordable medicines. Do you support or oppose this? Is it in the national interest for Australian taxpayers to add to the coffers of overseas companies, or isn't it? Should the government oppose affordable, often life-saving, medicine for Australians if that medicine comes from overseas?
Emirates Airlines - Skywards
11 Mar 2015
Total posts 191
how can you compare life saving medicine to an airline??
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
07 Aug 2013
Total posts 248
Yawn...what a boring comment. Whose next to have a dig at virgin.
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
What the relevance of that comment to this article?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
02 Sep 2018
Total posts 153
I'm assuming you are referring to Virgin here which is 90% foreign owned but keep in mind that Qantas also has foreign shareholders, but they are only kept at owning a maximum of 49% because of their company constitution. If you don't want to bailout an international company, then I assume you wouldn't want us to bail out Woolworths or BHP or many of our big 4 banks because they all have much greater ratio of foreign ownership compared to Australian ownership. This flawed logic is simply ridiculous when it is clearly an attempt to take an obvious jab at Virgin.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
16 Jan 2018
Total posts 129
@clarksydonga you've probably forgotten the years 2012/2013/2014 when Qantas was asking for tax cuts, bailouts, and complaining that they couldn't be more than 49% foreign owned. So someone who today preaches about being an Australian airline only 5 years so wanted to be more foreign owned. That same airline wants to remove its competition today so that they can be the only one servicing Australia's main ports and price gouging travelers due to the proverbial supply/demand. Virgin's losses over the last decade were covered by their foreign owners and not the Australian government or tax payer all for the benefit of all Australian travelers. During which time, to repeat myself, Qantas had asked for tax cuts, bailouts, and higher foreign ownership. While Virgin is asking for 1.4 billion, Qantas wants 4.2 billion instead. Who should you really be supporting when you look at that comparison?
05 Oct 2011
Total posts 195
Are you aware that QF is almost 50% owned by foreigners?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
20 Mar 2012
Total posts 233
Agree with above, very over the VA bashing- extraordinarily ignorant and misinformed imo. A Brisbane based airline with a number of personal friends as employees- they truly love where they work.
Australia is better off without a greedy monopoly.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Oct 2011
Total posts 467
I agree with you totally. And yet I also don't think we should bail out a foreign-wined business.
Singapore Airlines - KrisFlyer
02 Dec 2016
Total posts 47
Then why was the federal government bailing out the likes of Holden ?!
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
Because it was the manufacturing industry they were supporting not the dealers
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
24 Jan 2018
Total posts 755
And there is over 9,000 Virgin employees, which it one hell of a lot more that were employed in the automated PMV factories at Holden, Ford and Toyota combined (2 of which were clients of a former employer). Government should throw good money away, but equally, the lure of Chairman's Lounge access shouldn't be influencing Government policy (but you just know it is).
As a QFF with enough points to fly well, I just know that the fare structure will change without Virgin, and I'll get 'hosed' by the higher points needed. based upon recent performance, I simply don't trust Qantas when they don't have a competitor to keep them honest.
22 Jul 2014
Total posts 14
Without VA there will be no competition within domestic flights. Qantas will be charging whatever amount it fees think for a return flight from SYD to MEL or BNE will about $700 economy class fare and are you prepared to pay? Major supermarkets, BHP, Rio Tinto, Arnott, as well as some banks are foreign owned and OZ gov subsided billions of dollars of taxpayers funds and how many people objected these? Ford and Holden got billions of dollars and no one objected to gov subsidy and the list goes on and on. Get your facts right first.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
It won't be a monopoly - I'm not sure why Virgin supporters (which are clearly individuals that have no financial interest in the airline) think the airline won't be replaced if it folds - it will, there will be another airline come in the same way Ansett was replaced.
23 Oct 2014
Total posts 238
It will be a monopoly because no one will start full Service, and any start up prob won't venture outside MEL/SYD/BNE, and to build a national network will be 20 years, so yes it will be a monopoly of the current form for 20 years, only QF staff would enjoy and agree to that.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
24 Jan 2018
Total posts 755
Sorry, I thought I'd been clear and honest MitchSydney, I'm merely a traveller who's loyalty is promiscuous and only to the best service provider at the time. I'm not conflicted by a financial interest in either airline, a fact that hasn't prevented them accepting my money when purchasing airfares at the going commercial rate (no staff discounts enjoyed here).
By expectations are high, and I'm brutal when my patronage is taken for granted. It's called 'freedom of choice', perhaps a strange concept to some. Suggest you read Chanticleer in today's AFR (16-APR-2020) for a clear and concise analysis of the current situation. You might learn something (as did I).
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
14 Sep 2016
Total posts 28
Couldn't agree more! I have many friends whom work in both airlines (as both pilots and cabin crew and executives)
Mostly the competition of two airlines have been a saviour to the consumer - we have one of the best services in domestic travel in both VA and Qantas.
Just look at the cabin experience in Europe and the US with domestic business class! It's terrible compared to ours - see executive traveller article last week on our business class and economy experience with what competition in market place brings.
As a plat business class flyer on Qantas and Golf VA I am happy with this balance! Of different times and needs of travel
I am much more loyal as a Qantas consumer! However I respect VA as a corporation that has created many thousands of jobs to the Australian public - and that being said SHOULD be fairly weighted in direct benefits to the STAFF not TO LINE THE POCKETS OF THE EXECUTIVES BE IT LOCALLY OR MOSTLY OVERSEAS!
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
07 Aug 2013
Total posts 248
To all those who say government shouldn't bail out a foreign owned airline...Qantas last update to ASX of its foreign ownership of shares was at 35.78% as at Oct 2019. Virgin is at roughly 80% foreign investment, each major with a rough 20% or so. Yes foreign ownership but they have invested in a company that's run and operated in Australia that has benefits to Australians, consumers and the economy. Do your research and go figure what Virgin contributes to tourism, jobs and puts back to the Aistralian economy. If you truly don't want to support foreign companies then put your money when your mouth is and stop shopping at Woolworths (foreign owned and Qantas sent their employees there?)...Always look for home grown and not the cheap overseas made goods, and don't invest your money into the major banks which are majority owned by foreign investors and also don't put your super into international assets - invest in local only. How many Australians give their money to fly Emirates, Qatar, Singapore etc when they have option of flying Qantas but they chose not to.
The argument of bailing out an international company is pointless. And isn't Virgin looking for a loan not a bailout?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
20 Mar 2012
Total posts 233
This is an important point I feel the AJ spin has subdued- it's a strong possibility that loan would result in equity; suddenly VA is more Aus-owned than Qantas!
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
10 Apr 2016
Total posts 60
We should learn from the GFC where Governments took equity interests in banks.
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
They did that for different reasons. Though agree with the sentiment, that government assistance is in the national interest.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
Thats an empty argument. Virgins shareholders have the opportunity to provide the funds required and the guarantees and they won't - that is all the information you need to understand that Virgin are a basket case - share price at 8 cents for goodness sake, that is a junk bond. The government definitely should not be throwing good money after bad and the issue is not whether its local ownership or foreign, it is a publicly listed company that is drowning.
05 Oct 2011
Total posts 195
Please don't put forward disingenuous arguments. The foreigners don't have the money to stump up.
29 Oct 2013
Total posts 17
Dan22
This isn't a loan, VA hasn't made a profit in more than 5 years. Surely no one seriously thinks that they'll be able to repay 1.4b in 3 years. This is nothing short of a government bailout if it happens, to a badly run airline. Our national airline which has been employing Australians for 100 years deserves a level playing field. Qantas just borrowed 1b to see itself through this epidemic over a 10 year period and they've made about 8b in profits in the last 5 years, yet VA thinks they're capable of repaying this “loan”, ain't gonna happen.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
07 Aug 2013
Total posts 248
@GONGBANGER I don't beleive at all Virgin will repay the loan..i think they'll be stupid to repay it! Should let the loan default and then let government take it over in 2 years and have the backbone of being state run. Remove the virgin name makes no difference. If this situation did occur the company would be in a better position then most other airlines for sure.
17 Mar 2020
Total posts 5
@clarkysdonga does your comment include Qantas?! It's not Australian owned, 36% of Qantas is foreign owned and a certain person at Qantas wants that figure to increase!
People need to stop bashing Virgin because without VA no one will see any discounted airfares in this country. Qantas/Jetstar will charge mega bucks to fly. The staff would be screwed over and so would the Australian public.
So what if VA is majority owned by foreigners, they employ 10,000 + Australians. Holden was owned by USA, and yet the Aust Govt gave them $$$$millions. Did you all bitch and whinge about the handouts they were given? I bet most wouldn't have.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
09 Feb 2015
Total posts 388
People have very short memories. We need two airlines in Australia. Fares under a Qantas monopoly would be stuff of nightmares on the domestic front.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
It won't be a monopoly - there will be a second airline, it just won't be Virgin
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
09 Feb 2015
Total posts 388
Bet it will be Virgin, but only time will tell.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
09 Feb 2015
Total posts 388
I suspect it will be Virgin, but only time will tell. As a loyal QF traveler, I for one hope VA survive and then thrive.
Competition is healthy and tens of thousands of livelihoods depend on it.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
24 Jan 2018
Total posts 755
Disagree. We'll be left with just the one airline, until a global behemoth steps in, then we'll see AJ running to Gov't as fast as his little legs will carry him. Even Richard Goyder (AJ's boss) realises that. Notice AJ hasn't had much to say lately - Goyder has clearly counselled him (or put a muzzle on him).
22 Jul 2014
Total posts 14
Alan Joyces does not need multi million pay packet. His pay should be capped at maximum $500,000 as the work is done by his staff. If he really care about his staff he could give way $18 million pay-packet to his staff.
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
If 66% of Qantas is not foreign owned then the company is not foreign owned.
That said I personally don't care who owns what I think that in the current circumstances where essentially government decisions have decimated the industry direct assistance should be given the tourism industry, airlines in particular regardless of who owns them.
No business, especially ones with large fixed costs that still need to be paid could be expected to plan to freeze their business for 6-12 months. Unlike say a cafe where the main costs stop if they don't operate.
QF
11 Jul 2014
Total posts 997
I really don't get how people can't see the benefit of making sure we have 2 airlines at start up. Have a look at the price increases in supermarkets the prices at service stations. With one airline only prices will go up a lot more then 20% (50%). With international fleets grounded for longer then domestic I actually think Qantas is in a worse position long term then Virgin.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
There won't be one airline, the second airline just won't be Virgin.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
24 Jan 2018
Total posts 755
You're right, Sharp Airlines, operating out of Essendon Fields, can be that 2nd airline. It'll be just great.
01 Jun 2018
Total posts 4
Dan22 you are 100% correct. There are certainly a large number of Alan Joyce fans here that will bag VA at any opportunity. VA may have a number of overseas investors but it is an Australian airline, based in Brisbane and listed on the ASX.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
Yes it is listed, at 8 cents per share is it a junk bond essentially .... just name any other company that has a share price at 8 cents that anyone in their right mind would invest in. Has nothing to do with Alan Joyce, that is just trying to deflect the truth - if Joyce had been running Virgin they would not be the basket case they turned themselves into, they would be profit making and this would not even be a discussion.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
08 Dec 2014
Total posts 51
I must thank all the commenters for an amusing morning's read.
As a brief break from the near constant Qantas bashing on this site, one person dares to criticise Virgin and everyone is up in arms. Hilarious.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
07 Aug 2013
Total posts 248
Hey @Ozshanel - its not about one person criticising, it's about making sure people like you get their biased views quashed by facts. Taking a look at your comment history and your stance on Virgin, seems to be finally working, I'm glad to see you couldn't provide any comments apart from trying to make a joke.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
08 Dec 2014
Total posts 51
Ok @Dan22, you want me to comment, here goes....
I find the amount of negative sentiment towards Qantas in Australia frankly offensive. No other airline is there to support and look after Australians whenever required and whatever the cost like Qantas does. They are constantly criticised for their levels of service and the quality of their staff when they have an Australian cost base and employ staff under Australian conditions but have to compete (and be compared to) other state sponsored airlines where cost isn't an issue, making a profit isn't required and they can fire staff on a whim (such as getting too old / fat /married etc).
Regarding Virgin, I have nothing against them per se and I do get the point many have been making regarding the number of Australians they employ and their contribution to the economy however the problem I have is that, for the past 10 years or so, their sole focus has been on doing whatever they can to screw Qantas, no matter what the cost, and it has left the company a basket case. I do feel really sorry for the current CEO. He has inherited a bad business that can't make money with its current model / cost base. This is why I object to the Australian government being expected to use taxpayer's money to bail out a business that was already failing, particularly as they are owned by a number of very wealthy foreign organisations who could easily provide the necessary funding if they really wanted to.
I understand that, from a consumer's point of view, Virgin has been a godsend. People can now fly in comparative luxury for next to nothing, however what sort of business model is successful when the prices charged for your services don't even cover the cost of providing them?
I don't think it would be good for Qantas to be a monopoly however I have no doubt that it wouldn't take very long for a new player to enter the Australian domestic market if and when Virgin finally goes under.
So, yes, I have found the vigour with which people have been jumping to the defence of Virgin quite amusing. I just wish that people would have as much passion for Qantas, an airline started in Australia 100 years ago which Australians can and should be proud of.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
02 Sep 2018
Total posts 153
Virgin Australia is as much an australian company as Qantas is. Where is VA based? Brisbane. They hire the majority of their staff in Australia except for some NZ based crew for their trans tasman service and call centre agents working in the Phillipines, all of which Qantas is also doing. Just because Virgin is majority foreign owned doesn't mean they don't pay their AUSTRALIAN staff just as much as Qantas has. I'm not even sure where you got the argument that Qantas is competing with state-owned airlines whilst Virgin is not. They are the only two airlines operating domestically here, none of them are state-owned except that Qantas is too big and too essential to fail.
The government should be the one to issue a LOAN, not a BAIL OUT, because the government should be for the interests of the people and it is undeniable that Virgin is a benefit to us. It would be highly unlikely that these so called 'wealthy foreign investors' will pump more money in when they have problems of their own.
No one is ashamed of Qantas at all. We are grateful that we have an airline that can represent the spirit of australia to the world but Virgin is needed so that that spirit doesn't turn to absolute crap. If it were not for Virgin, would you have one of the best domestic business class products in the world? I doubt it.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
24 Jan 2018
Total posts 755
"negative sentiment towards Qantas ..." - are you for real. Tried blogging anything that's no 'glowing' about Joyce in The Australian and you're censored. OMG, it's so bad than even the AFR has found the need and fire back some objective commentary about Joyce's behaviour.
I truly do admire your loyalty to Qantas, their world-wide lounge network and the heart-string pulling music in their commercials, but please ... the cost of a Qantas airfare will sky-rocket without Virgin. Think it through ... carefully.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
21 Jan 2014
Total posts 320
This ownership thing people have is bizarre, so if QF was foreign owned you would let it fail also, It is only Govt legislation that stops QF from being foreign owned, otherwise it would have gone that way years ago also.
13 Apr 2020
Total posts 8
I think we need to acknowledge the new economy here. There wont be sufficient demand to sustain two airlines in this country for many years to come. Accepting this, do we end up with a car-industry situation where the government spends billions subsidising a (relatively) small number of jobs? Sadly I think it is best to make the tough decision about further industry support at the time of this year's federal budget. In terms of who stays and who goes, that should be based on the carrier with the stronger set of numbers.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
07 Aug 2013
Total posts 248
@bitre - I have to disagree here - no matter is virgin goes and eventually another airline comes into play - there should always be at minimum 2 airlines. To give all power to one company to take advantage of for their profits is not good for 99% of Australian population. We'd be taken advantage of. Need to rethink your question here - there won't be enough demand to sustain the 2 airlines in their pre COVID form. I would like to see VA become a domestic only airline for forseeablw future. As for Qantas, they will shrink intl drastically - but domestically you will see both airlines number of B737s/A330s shrink from the skies also in order to sustain business and meet demand.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
04 Nov 2017
Total posts 343
@Dan22 - Considering VA's diabolical shareholder makeup. Restructure is going to be difficult on VA's end considering the dysfunction between all the shareholders with their own objectives.
The easier way VA could dramatically scale to a domestic-only carrier is to file voluntary administration and allow the administrators to do the work/due dillegence to see if a "mk II" carrier can be formed from VA's assets. This will also able the administrators to relieve the shareholders of their duties, despite the likes of EY and SQ, which may not be happy at being "removed" from control of VA, it may be better for them in the long run being able to control their own financial debts and duties.
If the administrators find that it is feasible to form a "VA mk II" (doesn't necessarily need to carry the 'Virgin' name either) either, then great. Going by the AN Mk II history, if Administrators deem that a VA mk II is feasible, the VA successor would likely be a domestic LCC for the foreseeable future.
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
@bitre - if we acknowledge the new economy, we must also acknowledge the reality that no other airline is in a financial position to start flying domestically in Australia.
The problem with moving to a monopoly, is that competition induces demand through pricing which is extremely unlikely to occur in a monopoly market. So the problem of reduced domestic travel will be made worse, not better.
The car industry related to subsidising the manufacturing of cars. However losing that ability, has not left consumers with one car to buy. So it is far from a like for like comparison.
AND... It is not a small number of jobs. Think about everything that goes into an airline and associated travel related industries. They have already been hit hard and will have a poor chance of recovery if domestic aviation doesn't largely recover. I'd argue a government loan would be less damaging to the federal budget than the longer term economic damage of reduced domestic connectivity.
23 Oct 2014
Total posts 238
Supposed alleged timeline in the article seems to make a farce of the “you cannot pick winners and losers” or “only provide assistance to one airline”. It does raise an eyebrow.....
Well done to all that Virgin was included, for the strength of the ENTIRE Australian airline industry and both Major Airlines.
As far as federal bailouts/investments go, another interesting point is that that 100% of Virgins operations are based IN Australia.
13 Apr 2020
Total posts 2
@DownSouth "You say 100% of Virgins operation are based IN Australia"
Perhaps you should try calling their main 'Manila-based' call centre to discuss that. It was said to be responsible for their recent telephone issues? FYI, that refers to Manila in the Philippines, not Manilla in NSW :)
https://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/threads/virgin-australias-manila-call-centre-closed-expect-longer-delays.98805/
They also had a base in New Zealand until a few weeks ago, you know from where their hundreds of staff were so quickly fired.
Virgin seems to be making most of the airline noise, but are failing to be specific as to why their own shareholders won't bail them out. Perhaps they don't believe in the loss-making business? Perhaps that's why there's more focus on working with paid spin doctors and running their media campaigns to have taxpayers hand over 1.4 billion dollars; what a win, for Virgin, they'd finally have made some money!
I agree with @bitre and, foreign ownership issues aside, there likely won't be enough demand for a very-long-time to sustain two airlines, Qantas is Australia's flag carrier and if there was a vote on it, I believe the majority of sensible Australia would support Qantas over Virgin. Better to have one very strong flag carrier than two carriers teetering on the edge. If later required, perhaps deregulation could allow for a reciprocal arrangement for Air NZ to and Qantas to operate domestically in both countries. IMHO It makes far more sense to support NZ than a largely Chinese owned Virgin Australia.
If Virgin are serious about saving the airline to better serve Australia then put the company into administration before it loses any more money, restructure everything or sell off the business, ditch that Virgin name and associated licensing fees, and just get on with it, I'm clearly not alone in being fed up of hearing how we 'need' Virgin.
We may need a second airline, but not until the end (the so-called other side) of the coronavirus, and that could come in different forms.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
Firstly VA are not asking for a bailout, they were initially asking for a loan.
Secondly according to articles in the news this morning it would appear that BOTH VA and QF are going to be subsidised to allow some operations to commence again.
I think it's great to see the Government helping out such a vital Industry which is suffering at this time because of no fault of its own making.
Sure VA was not doing as well as QF for quite a while but it was improving fairly quickly and it's correct that they do not have a big a reserve as QF or what is needed to see them through this horrible time but that is not any reason to abandon them.
Theres a hell of a lot of people who depend on VA continuing operations quite apart from its employees so there's one hell of a lot more at stake than meets the eye.
We should all be pleased to see a helping hand being offered and not put them down all the time.
For the record I am not and never have been employed in any way by either VA or QF , I'm just a happy passenger who really enjoys flying.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
It's not improving - it lost $1b in the last 2 years and its share price is at record lows of 8 cents .... tell me how that is improving? It has subsidised loss making seats to get passengers and to meet its marketing messages rather than trying to run a disciplined operation.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Feb 2015
Total posts 124
100% no bail out for Virgin! There will be another player coming into the market sooner or later its no loss at all
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
Yes.... Because the market is flush with cashed up airlines right now.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
08 May 2017
Total posts 14
If the government is going to support Virgin then they need to be subject to the same conditions of Qantas, Alan Joyce wanted the Qantas Sale Act changed so they could be on the same playing field as Virgin Australia well any bailout / loan to VA should mean in the end same shareholder conditions.
Either move VA to the same majority Australian ownership, that way majority of shareholders are subject to Australian law and taxation or otherwise remove the QF Foreign shareholder limit and we won't be having arguments of Australian airlines or foreign owned airline.
First shareholders should be the ones tapped for extra capital, than banks and super funds and equity funds. If they can't provide it then we move to option C which is what VA is asking for right now - a loan that converts to equity if not repaid. That seems fair but needs very strong conditions being imposed (on both VA and QF) including Government becoming a priority creditor if VA fails.
Also let's be very clear in the short term, with either only one or the same two major airlines in Australia they will both have to raised fares significantly and cut costs to get back all these losses and repay debts.
In the long term the two airlines being competitive with each other on price and services can return but right now if they both survive they probably need a short to medium term (12-24 months) exemption to laws colluding on prices and routes.
There is, or shouldn't be, any free lunches. Both major airlines need to slash costs and raise fares to cover all these losses. QF wants VA out of the way to be free to do that fast on a monopoly path but even if they both survive QF and VA will need to operate like a monopoly (or in this case a colluding duopoly) to get back.
If both survive they will need to cut staff and services significantly for up to 2 years. If one survives the departing airlines loss everything and the surviving one can cut around the margins. The next two years are going to loss local jobs and services either with one or two airlines.
So We are really only talking about the long term of competitive airlines in both surviving because it's impossible for both to survive in the next two years without them stopping being so competitive with each other and instead just surviving and repaying massive debts.
As travellers we will have to accept higher costs, less route and flying options, and less services on those flights (including lounges and frequent flyer programs). That is the new world for a while to come, before maybe getting back to where we were back in Demeber 2019.
Good luck to staff and businesses associated with QF and VA very tough times ahead. I had family that lost out big time when Ansett went down and never really recovered from loss of their long term employer. It's devastating to those in that situation and some staff from QF and VA now face this, some pilots and FA will never work again in their preferred industry if at all (depending on age).
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
14 Sep 2012
Total posts 382
I agree we need to think pan Australian interest and for that we want to see both Qantas and Virgin survive, they both support a A LOT of jobs and keep Australia moving, pun intended. I think when it comes to subsidies and foreign ownership people perceive VA's foreign ownership is by other large scale Government owned international airlines (SQ, EY, NHA) who are not rallying to support VA, and I know rescue subsidy is not the primary job of an investor but thats still how people perceive it. Even with foreign ownership people still perceive Qantas as Australian owned. The key word throughout, “perceive”.
Jetstar Airways - Qantas Frequent Flyer
14 Jan 2017
Total posts 67
Seriously we need to get back to the facts. By virtue of the qantas sales act it will always be majority Australian owned. Virgin is majority foreign State owned. In the immediate post covid world Australia cannot support two airlines and there is no reason to subsidise one over another. All the talk about the need to have two airlines is nonsense. We won't even need 1 for some time now. The Australian tax payer is not in the business of owning airlines (hence the reason qantas was sold and its requests for government assistance turned down in the past). The tax payer is also not in the business of making loans that can never be repaid. As an investor or financier you would put your money into Virgin. Why should the tax payer. And no we won't save any jobs because both Qantas and Virgin have more staff than needed for the demand either combined or separately so Job losses are inevitable. The idea that 15000 jobs will be saved if virgin got an equity injection is fanciful.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Aug 2017
Total posts 84
An interesting article by John Durie in The Australian has just appeared, outlining possible recent developments. I think it's behind a paywall so I won't link to it, and I'm sure it will be reported here soon. But the article is headlined "What Virgin Needs to Survive" for those who have access.
13 Apr 2020
Total posts 1
If you can afford flights today it is because Virgin came here, in the 90s when Quantas had the monopoly it used to cost $ 800 - 1000 to fly to Melbourne 1 way.
Quantas need Virgin like Telstra need Optus.
All those that say dont help virgin have invested interest because it's in the interest of all those who plan to fly in Australia's interest to have virgin around.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
Nonsense. Ansett competed with Qantas, the only time they have had a monopoly is when the competing airline folds because they cannot run themselves properly - Virgin have already failed, the question is can they be saved.
29 Oct 2013
Total posts 17
flojoe
OMG, you can't even spell QANTAS properly and you want me to read your comments and take them seriously.
22 Jul 2014
Total posts 14
Not to mention majority of the staff at VA are Australian based and their PAYG = GST taxes flows back to State and Federal Governments. What people don't realise is that Qantas also has foreign shareholders and capped at 49%.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
04 Sep 2015
Total posts 25
I fully support Virgin, much better customer service and value for money,I used to hold a Qantas club lounge membership , gave it away after experiencing Virgin.Do whatever it takes to save Virgin.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
They can give you that experience because they are throwing money at you - the experience is great because they cannot manage the books.
13 Apr 2020
Total posts 15
Ozshanel
Your post is wrong I'm afraid. Yes Virgin Australia had been failing but since new management, analysts predicted a profit for FY2021. Things were changing, with hard decisions being made, and profitability was on the horizon. No doubt would Virgin Australia have made a profit moving forward in good market conditions.
Disagree with you completely about Virgin Australia trying to do what ever it can to bring down Qantas. In fact, it has been the other way round it would seem! Just look at the very unAustralian events recently in the way their CEO has behaved against Virgin Australia.
Yes Qantas can survive COVID-19 but only for a specific time period too. Virgin Australia's was simply more limiting. Both Qantas and Virgin Australia would benefit from government assistance, just like every airline out there. Otherwise Virgin Australia will fall and Qantas will be very badly wounded compared to other competing airlines.
It is interesting the negative sentiment you feel towards Qantas. Virgin Australia experiences this every day (usually by the same authors) in many chat forums!
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
Virgin were never going to make a profit this year - just take a detailed look at the books and it was impossible as their costs still far outstrip any possible income. Their share price reflected this even before the Virus hit - they ended calendar 2019 at 15 cents a share, lower than when the new management team took over. It is a nonsense to suggest that somehow after years of structuring its business into a loss making venture that suddenly it would make money.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
20 Mar 2012
Total posts 233
@mitchsydney couldn't disagree more, airports air private owned now- Qantas will buy up assets fast and there just won't be the available infrastructure for another major player. Where will they hub? Can't imagine a new carrier building their own airport nor any new and fast-built ports in major cities! Don't drink the kool-aid, it's flawed logic.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
It's the argument that every flawed business uses - you need us to avoid a monopoly and it's nonsense. A new carrier building their own airport - now that's drinking cool-aid, they won't need to they'll use the capacity left vacant by Virgin if Virgin cease to exist .... which is exactly what Virgin did when Ansett failed - note that Qantas did not block any of that.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
20 Mar 2012
Total posts 233
@mitchsydney again you have completely missed the point. Virgin were able to purchase + lease those spare gates and assets because they were already operational and airports were not anywhere near as privatised as they are now. These airports are around to make a profit and if QF can offer them the $$ for the gates and assets straight up, best believe they will take the offer. Suddenly, another airline is not feasible. Only a fool would compare today's environment to that of post-Ansett.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
Only a fool would put money into an 8 cent per share company that is losing over $500m per year and losing to it's only domestic competitor ...... subsiding them because of a fantasy around another competitor not coming in to replace them is even more foolish
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
07 Aug 2013
Total posts 248
@mitchSydney - ah if we compare Virgin to their competition, Qantas is hovering at $3.50 right now...they tanked to $2.16 back in March all within space of few weeks. They have seen swings with greater impact then virgin (VA has less to lose). For QF back in their troubled times around 2012 they were scraping a $1 a share...nothing to rave on about.
But here is a scenario for you: If you by VA shares at 8c, and they get a bailout or better yet in 2 years when they fail to repay the possible govt loan...I'd predict those shares be a lot more. I think your a fool for any hint nows NOT the time to buy shares (VA or any other company that's at a low price)...gotta take a risk to make money - now if you literally beleive that Aus Government will let a major business like VA crumble because you feel they shouldn't be bailed out - easy answer for you then, don't invest! Buying shares when they worth nothing and sitting on them till when they are worth something..that's not a foolish idea. That's how you make money. Even if Virgin rose to a mere $1 a share, you have literally made 12 fold on your 8c investment. Just need to buy a tonne of share for a substantial return..simples.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
24 Jan 2018
Total posts 755
You're quite on point, FrequentFlyer. MitchSydney seems to know so much about VAH financial statements, why, he could get a job at Qantas given that expertise (assuming he isn't already :-) ).
13 Apr 2020
Total posts 2
@DownSouth "You say 100% of Virgins operation are based IN Australia"
Perhaps you should try calling their main 'Manila-based' call centre to discuss that. It was said to be responsible for their recent telephone issues? FYI, that refers to Manila in the Philippines, not Manilla in NSW :)
They also had a base in New Zealand until a few weeks ago, you know from where their hundreds of staff were so quickly fired.
Virgin seems to be making most of the airline noise, but are failing to be specific as to why their own shareholders won't bail them out. Perhaps they don't believe in the loss-making business? Perhaps that's why there's more focus on working with paid spin doctors and running their media campaigns to have taxpayers hand over 1.4 billion dollars; what a win, for Virgin, they'd finally have made some money!
I agree with @bitre and, foreign ownership issues aside, there likely won't be enough demand for a very-long-time to sustain two airlines, Qantas is Australia's flag carrier and if there was a vote on it, I believe the majority of sensible Australia would support Qantas over Virgin. Better to have one very strong flag carrier than two carriers teetering on the edge. If later required, perhaps deregulation could allow for a reciprocal arrangement for Air NZ to and Qantas to operate domestically in both countries. IMHO It makes far more sense to support NZ than a largely Chinese owned Virgin Australia.
If Virgin are serious about saving the airline to better serve Australia then put the company into administration before it loses any more money, restructure everything or sell off the business, ditch that Virgin name and associated licensing fees, and just get on with it, I'm clearly not alone in being fed up of hearing how we 'need' Virgin.
We may need a second airline, but not until the end (the so-called other side) of the coronavirus, and that could come in different forms.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
02 Sep 2018
Total posts 153
Firstly, it is true that Virgin doesn't have a 100% Australian workforce but neither does Qantas. Even just with call centres, Qantas hires and outsources call centre operations to other countries INCLUDING the Philippines. Qantas ALSO has a base in New Zealand for their Jetconnect staff to operate trans-tasman flights. To conserve cash and cut costs, Virgin laid them off.
Second, the loan doesn't help Virgin actually make any money. In the Airline industry, 1.4 billion amounts to nothing more than getting the airline back on its feet which by then we hope with new management and direction from Scurrah, who has proven to already be much more financially responsible, will turn the airline around. And these so called spin doctors, are those the same ones that called out Virgin to be on the verge of collapse yet financially irresponsible when they chose to cut domestic network and only fly between Sydney and Melbourne, something Qantas has also done the day after but with much less criticism. Where's the spin doctor there?
Third, enough about the chinese owned airline and how we shouldn't trust Virgin because it's not owned by the Australian people. Well guess what? Almost 40% of Qantas is foreign owned and I recall there being calls to lift foreign ownership rules on the airline when it was on the verge of failure back in 2011 to boost investments. What's happening now? Also if you don't trust 'foreign' companies then definitely don't go to your local Aldi or Woolworths because they are definitely more foreign than Australian!
Fourth: Oh would you look at that! Virgin is exactly what you wanted! They hired consulting firm Deloitte and a financial restructuring firm to help them survive longer. You don't need Virgin, you need a second airline. The problem is just that getting new airline is much harder than keeping an old one alive.
23 Oct 2014
Total posts 238
This equal funding form the government to both groups seems to have sent the QF fan club into a frenzy, desperately trying to bag Virgin and squash them at all costs.
Emirates Airlines - Skywards
11 Mar 2015
Total posts 191
non of the airlines should be bailed out by the taxpayers money-they should provide them with an interest free loan which they could pay back when the business will pick up.
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
Funny I thought a loan is what Virgin Australia wanted rather than a “bail out” per se.
And that is different to the current situation where both airlines are seeking government help to continue flying a domestic network, which in the circumstances is reasonable.
10 Apr 2020
Total posts 14
The government could take over both, merge them then outsource the management.
That should stop the argument
24 Sep 2019
Total posts 12
For all those concerned about the Manila call centre - perhaps you'd like to expand on that line of thought by regaling us with tales of qantas setting up call centres in the Philippines, South Africa, Malaysia and NZ?
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
A trading halt on the ASX after Virgin completed a call with its international shareholders - that tells you all you need to know about the state of the airline.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
24 Jan 2018
Total posts 755
What does it tell us, mitchsydney? Australia has the best business class travel for internal, domestic flights - compared to many overseas airlines. Whether you choose to fly Qantas or Virgin, the quality of product and service delivery i seamless, efficient, and makes the 'travel' component of interstate business less noticeable. I occasionally fly 'eco' and they're fine, but at my age by the end of the day .... I need a lounge chair in the air. And if I can't get it with one airline, I nearly always get it with the other. It's called being spoilt for choice.
That will slowly cease if Qantas doesn't have a domestic competitor. And that's a fact. And that's why I want both kept operational, even if one of them needs Government support.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
Well that says it all .... you want them to survive on a government handout so you can have a comfy business class seat .... yet here we have rural communities crying out for basic support even more so after the bushfires but you'd rather that money goes to a basket case of a foreign airline so you can be comfy ...... oh dear.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
24 Jan 2018
Total posts 755
VAH not seeking a Government handout, you know better than to say that. Rural communities were generally quite well serviced before flights were grounded, particularly when VA flew to them. I pay for my own airfares, and when I stay in a local HTL I'm supporting local businesses. I don't get a discount beyond that offered to the public. When I pay for J Class, I expect top service, and it's only been since 2010 that such a service has emerged.
I'm surprised by your repetitive missives that seem to think competition is a bad thing, or is it only when VAH provides that competition? Your motives amuse me, I do enjoy reading them. Thank-you.
PS: I'm not an employee, contractor or consultant to ANY airline, but I do an awful lot of business in the hotel and resorts sector around Australia (inland, coastal and islands). Have done since 2007. There's only one airline, that on 3 separate occasions, took for granted my purchase of business fares (but, no names needed).
Emirates Airlines - Skywards
19 Jul 2014
Total posts 27
For both commerce and tourism we desperately need both. Otherwise it will be up you mate, this is how much it costs on our one flight a day, take it or walk..
21 Dec 2012
Total posts 44
It's all well and good to argue that we shouldn't be helping foreign companies stay afloat... but this isn't "Generic Widget Seller X" that merely exists to extract money from consumers. I don't care about the Virgin shareholders, it's the benefit to the Australian flying public that actual competition brings.
As for "but a second airline will spring up", that seems woefully inefficient unless we're trying to provide a stimulus package to the sign printing community as they generate the new company's signage. Burning down an airline just in the hopes that the same thing will spring forth from the ashes will burn more money from our pockets than if our money was redirected to propping the other one up for a while.
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
Very well put. And we only need to look how long after Ansett went under that Virgin became a true competitor to Qantas. It takes years. We the Australian public all benefit from two domestic airlines and the interest of the Australian public should be how any assistance should be viewed.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
It's not about whether the airline is foreign or not - it is about the ability for Virgin to actually be able to run an airline responsibly and they've proven they cannot - any money given to them is throwing good money after bad.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
07 Aug 2013
Total posts 248
We get it @mitchsydney - you want to see virgin crumble. But you make it sound like VA is the only company that's turned to crap. Look at a tonne of other airlines almost on brink of financial collapse. And also the amount of airlines that own shares in other foreign airlines - most recent Delta with LATAM. What LATAM provides for their region is staggering bit should soemthing happen and using your logic they should receive no government support if it was in a similar case to VA. Yeah VA has been restructuring for years..but throughout its history it's had success. Look at Qantas history, it hasn't been smooth sailing also. remember when AJ shut Qantas down to try and get government support until they were forced to start back up - they were bleeding hundreds of millions.... Their answer wasnt in best interest for their employees..they got rid of staff, hired a majority of casual cabin crew and done away with full time employment - they even contract out their crew so those even receive less benefits. Casual QF crew salaries are literally in the $30k something a year range..). They also hired a UK crew base to cut costs of overseas deployment on the London flights which took away opportunities for Australian workers and moved call centres overseas etc. Good luck to Qantas, but they gonna have a hard time in future with the amount they lost especially from international service.
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
You seem to be implying the UK crew base was created after Joyce grounded Qantas for a few days as a cost cutting exercise.
Not that it matters in this particular debate but for the record the London crew base has been around since at least 2005 that I know of, and I believe many years before that. In times past it had a lot of Australians who lived in London so many might not have realised, more recently it's mostly Brits. They also had a Thai crew base that operated QF1/2 sectors as well when QF1/2 was via BKK.
And yes it was done to reduce costs, , though those costs for the UK based crew circa 2007 (when my neighbour in London was a CSA) were not salary but the cost hotels/meals and the extra crew required to do double hop sectors to London. And of course does it effect service and safety? Or is Qantas or Virgin Australia somehow meant to be a benevolent society of some sort?
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
If I am correct doesn't this make a mockery out of those who criticise VA's request for funding. Qantas bleat about not subsidising VA but this article shows they got a very big helping hand in 1993. How much is this in today's dollars.
To my way of thinking this should put to rest most criticism of a loan to VA and also the money the Govt. gave QF was a gift not a loan as far as I can read.
The Federal Government must help VA survive , the Country needs them.
QF
11 Jul 2014
Total posts 997
Don't forget Qantas then asked for a hand out in 2014 as well
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
I fully believe as I have mentioned several times here that in the current circumstances that the government should be giving assistance to Virgin Australia as I feel the current situation is something that NO business could plan for and have a contingency for, and unlike many other business that can go into hibernation relatively unscathed that there are far too many fixed costs to airlines that hibernation still bleeds significant amounts of money.
What I don't get is the rampant tribalism and the sheer vitriol that is appearing in many of the posts, and why something that happened in 1993 (27 years ago in completely different times) has any relevance to the current situation. And whilst you may not be able to link the article, what help did Qantas receive in 1993? The only thing I recall happening then is Qantas being privatised, I don't recall handouts or bailouts.
QF
11 Jul 2014
Total posts 997
Qantas was privatised in two stages, first by a sale of 25% to British Airways in 1993 and the remaining 75% by public float in mid-1995.
In 1993 the government gave Qantas a truck load of cash over a Billion dollars
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
I've tried to post the copied article but it does not appear. Can anyone suggest what I am doing wrong or not doing at all to show this please
24 Apr 2012
Total posts 2432
Hi Rod. Copying and pasting an article that was published elsewhere without the permission of the copyright holder is copyright infringement. We would instead suggest posting a link to the article in question. This may require moderator approval of your post (as it'd contain a link), but we generally review things quickly.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
This is the link to the media release about a Qantas loan in 1993.
I hope this enables viewing.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/828x1234/62c5d1b5_0dd4_4b2b_851d_12adec37c916_86d43f8f627944f05072cb639171a5847992f13b.jpeg
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
That was not a loan. That was the owner of the company (The Government) putting capital into the company to reduce debit with the intent of enhancing the sale price!
Not even close to the current situation.
QF
11 Jul 2014
Total posts 997
Qantas was a poorly run company owned by the government so they injected cash to move it onto the capitalist market, same as they did with Telstra. So what is the difference if they do a convertible note for VA? Let's see the benefits, jobs saving 10,000 people not to mention the whole bloody tourism industry in Australia. Prices will go up at least by 50% with one airline, it will take years for another airline to come in.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
It was still tax payers money that was given to QF and it really is irrelevant as to the reason .
No matter how you look at it it was still money given to QF by the Government of the day even though they owned the Airline it was still tax payers money that QF got.
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
They owned it and were putting in money to maximise their return. Massive difference even if it was tax payers money.
And again I think virgin should be helped, think it is clutching at straws and detracts from Virgin's plight making arguments like this one or indeed those who say Virgin shouldn't be helped because Ansett wasn't.
QF
11 Jul 2014
Total posts 997
Bring Back TAA , The Friendly Way, UpUpandAway with TAA
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
25 Mar 2014
Total posts 219
Maybe Tony Fernades is awaiting the demise of Virgin and will slide on in.
Air Asiatralia
23 Oct 2014
Total posts 238
Oh Dear, Qantas received $1.35billion in 1993, $2.5billion in today's dollars.
The $1.4billion loan for government ownership looks cheap.
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
Umm as I said above the government owned Qantas at the time and what they did was put in a cash injection to reduce debit. Exactly the same as what others are saying Virgin's owners should be doing for Virgin.
And the other question is how much did the government get back from that cash injection seeing as it was done prior to sale?
Qantas
03 Feb 2016
Total posts 11
Difference is QF wasn't privately owned in 1993.
23 Oct 2014
Total posts 238
#doublestandards
If the loan is not repaid the government will own Virgin.
US had provided $30B to US airlines, and last I looked it's owns 0 of them.
21 Apr 2017
Total posts 19
As a business would you lend someone $1.4B that has a debt of $5B, doesn't own one plane, and has a market capitalisation of approx $800M. Even if the Gov lent the money, and they failed, imagine the loss to the taxpayer. Bad management should not be rewarded.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
07 Aug 2013
Total posts 248
Your mistaken that they don't own aircraft - they have a mixed fleet of outright and leased.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
25 Mar 2014
Total posts 219
Why are they starting again so early, I cant see enough confidence to warrant any of these flights subsidised or not.
Will you be jumping on a plane at the moment anywhere, I sure as hell wont be
18 Aug 2015
Total posts 55
People need to get home. Also, I don't see why people are scared of getting on an aircraft yet they'll take a bus, Uber to train.
31 Mar 2014
Total posts 397
To move freight
01 Aug 2019
Total posts 14
gee VA gets 64 flights a week and QF gets 164 not much fair play.
QF
11 Jul 2014
Total posts 997
Correction Virgin-Qatar
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
Maybe they got what they asked for!
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
02 Sep 2018
Total posts 153
Completely missing the point. Qantas is the nation's flag carrier and is responsible for connecting the nation. Virgin serves no more purpose than to be an alternative because every route they are running, Qantas will also run. Plus, all of the flights will be subsidised anyway. It is unlikely any of them make any profit than breaking even with the flights.
04 May 2015
Total posts 261
Qantas isn't THE flag carrier (or THE national carrier, as they always like to trumpet). Both Qantas AND Virgin Australia are privately owned companies and are national carriers based in Australia. By definition, both are flag carriers, both are national carriers.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
Your comment is nonsense - there isn't anyone in the world of aviation that thinks that VA are the national carrier or a flag carrier for Australia ..... that's like saying EasyJet are the flat carrier for the UK. Qantas are clearly the national carrier.
04 May 2015
Total posts 261
I didn't say Virgin was THE national carrier any more than I said Qantas was. Both are national airlines based in Australia, and by definition, both are Australian flag carriers. Just because some people play favourites with one airline over the other doesn't make that fact any less true.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
Oh please ... just take that conversation anywhere around the world and see how it sticks ..... locally Qantas has been part of our national consciousness for over a century ...... trying to spin Virgin in that same view is just ridiculous.
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
I think many people fail to understand what a flag carrier is.
Basically flag carrier status comes when bilateral agreements between two countries are agreed to with the rights allocated to respective flag carriers of those nations.
Non flag carriers cannot fly or apply to fly those routes unless the agreement between those countries is an open sky type of agreement.
So in reality Virgin Australia is recognised as an Australian flag carrier and has been awarded routes as a result, most recently their allocation to Japan.
Which airline people consider to be Australia's flag or national carrier comes down to a matter of marketing over reality.
22 Jan 2020
Total posts 76
Complete tosh. Routes are not assigned based on a symbolic "flag" carrier status at all - all routes are negotiated not "awarded" as you claim
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
It's not tosh at all.
Except for counties that have open air arrangements air routes are negotiated by countries (not airlines) where they determine maximum frequencies, ports to be served, seats etc etc etc. carriers then apply for those routes and when granted to an airline they are allocated flag carrier status for the rights of that country.
And the perfect example is the one I gave of flights to Japan where both Qantas and Virgin Australia were both awarded flights. By being granted some of Australia's rights on that route Virgin Australia are considered an Australian flag carrier as they are representing Australia on that allocation.
Same with Hong Kong, New Zealand no as it's an open market and not sure about the US as it is a hybrid market with access being open but only for US and Australian carriers.
04 Dec 2017
Total posts 69
Where the bejeekers was the Virgin 'bored' when Borghetti was on his road to nowhere?. They almost deserve to fail because of the blatant stupidity at the top. The victims are the employees. They need to be allowed to fold and be re-birthed into a smaller domestic airline. Let's face it share price, debt and profit stats don't lie. Nor does the current investor lethargy. Borghetti is the only one laughing in all this crisis, jumped ship in the nick of time. They are a basket case run airline as things stand.
09 Apr 2020
Total posts 11
Interesting to see where QF will be in 8-12 months assuming international travel remains restricted / impossible, no way you could let both airlines fail...
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
10 Aug 2016
Total posts 9
Virgin's domestic business class and certainly its international business class have been superb. I hope whatever emerges will provide serious competition to Qantas. I was a Qantas Club member for 20+ years and still feel great affection for it, but I am glad that VA grew to become a serious competitor. I was disgusted at Alan Joyce's crass comments about "survival of the fittest" a couple of weeks back. Besides, does anyone really want to go through the Ansett reborn (twice was it?)/Compass (TWICE!) chaos of the early 2000s, again?
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
At the moment I have a business class confirmed booking on VA's new schedule Perth to Brisbane May 26 but have to go via Melbourne as there's no direct flights.
This all looks good as long as VA are still flying then.
Had a look at QFs bookings for the same new scheduling and can't see any Business Class seating being offered on their flights.
Is that correct or am I not looking at it properly?
10 Jul 2018
Total posts 104
Due to Qantas limiting inflight food/beverage service and closing all lounges, I imagine it wouldn't be worth offering a domestic business class product right now. No idea if the seats can still be selected by high-tier frequent flyers before departure, as seat maps aren't showing for these flights either.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
I don't wish to seem petty or whinging but have a question about my flight from Perth to Brisbane via Melbourne with VA.
I'm getting different information from varying sources as to what service is being provided in Business Class.
Some say it a snack and water but some say there may be limited food and wine and yet another says to bring your own food and beverage.
Re. the last statement how can I take some beverage on board with the current limit for security of 100 mils?
It's quite a long flight so I will need something to eat and drink but don't know just what to take or hope there's something on Board.
Does anyone know just what is the correct case?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
14 Sep 2016
Total posts 28
@Rod H - agreed it's completely unclear! Both VA and Qantas have vague comments on this; I have a flight in October and asked them what the policy is and they said our flight has a full service after June.... so I can only assume they aren't providing any full services prior to June!
But if anyone else knows I'd be interested to know too as I have to go to QLD in May and booking as usual Business Class on Qantas and the prices still seem to reflect the same full amount!? For full service... including the lounge (which is fine for me!) but on the plane would enjoy and appreciate the full service - if possible to support the airline too and the sad loss
FYI I don't know if you'll be flying VA given the latest news?? If they're still in business flying
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
Shannonbarry51. It is quite a vexing question and I don't know how to get a definitive answer from VA that's why I have posted here.
According to the Administrators the reduced schedule that VA is currently flying will continue and that's also in a Statement on VA's page so I feel it will still be flying albeit in a reduced schedule operation. I think this was made clear to the ASX in a statement as well.
Like yourself I would like to get what I paid for but do understand the plight both Airlines are in so guess I'm lucky to get home at all.
Would be nice to have a meal and a few drinks but maybe it will have to be BYO and that will involve miniatures of alcohol to be able to pass through security unless the limit of 100 mins for each bottle is waived.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
14 Sep 2016
Total posts 28
Indeed @Rod H!! Agreed I assume you'll be fine to fly still as no announcement said they would cease just yet.
I do know from Qantas site it specifically says NO alcohol may be brought onboard
So you should kindly check with VA if they allow a nice red or white depending on your choice! However I doubt they will....
I am fairly certain they will offer something given what the fares are being charged! They are no different in economy or business class! The chair is not worth the fare comparison.... I value a business class tickets in quarters
1. Hard product seat, unit of entertainment etc
2.Soft product staff, service, food etc
3. Lounges etc
4. Entertainment
Due to 3 of these “missing or suspended” they should reflect the pricing as such! Or some formal metric as you're paying for a Mercedes and getting a Holden
24 Apr 2012
Total posts 2432
"I do know from Qantas site it specifically says NO alcohol may be brought onboard"
Hi Shannon, that's not correct. It's the consumption of a traveller's own alcohol on board that's prohibited, not the carriage of that alcohol.
The only things preventing alcohol from being carried by the passenger into the cabin would be liquid restrictions at international screening points (although there are workarounds for duty-free in most cases), and the weight of that alcohol if the passenger's bag becomes too heavy because of its contents.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
14 Sep 2016
Total posts 28
Thanks @Chris
I know that- I tried to link the correct site in the post but this site didn't allow that
“You can't use or dispense any alcohol you've brought onboard for personal consumption” regardless of the size and pending of course international duty free which is sealed and as per the laws of each departure or destination point.
Thanks for the minor re-clarification
Cheers keep safe all
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
10 Aug 2016
Total posts 9
Does the international 100ml liquid limit apply to AU domestic flights too?
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Aug 2017
Total posts 84
It absolutely does not. There is no 100ml limit on domestic flights.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
14 Sep 2016
Total posts 28
No it doesn't at all. You can bring over 100ml on domestic flights - unless you're connecting on an international flight it will be confiscated at customs transfer.
Furthermore you must have a Lid on bottles of sprays / aerosols
Hope that helps
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
Thanks to all for the replies.
On VA's web site it does mention that guests bring their own food and beverage to consume on board during these reduced services flights.
How can I find out from VA if I can bring my own bottle of red or something like it to consume on board if they don't supply any in Business Class? They might relax their restriction during this Covid-19 crisis causing a reduction in services.
It's a long flight from Perth-Melbourne-Brisbane and not being of the dromedary species I cannot store up any in my system so do need my tank topped up somewhere along the flight.
16 Nov 2011
Total posts 580
Consuming your own alcohol would be against their conditions of their liquor licence.
There is a blank rule you cannot consume your own alcohol, the fact they aren't serving it doesn't change that.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
AJW. Unfortunately you are correct.
Just received a private message on VA's Facebook page confirming the sad information.
Going to be a boring long flight without the usual lovely lunch and red wine.
Guess I should be grateful just to be able to get home to Brisbane.
Bit of a shame though as I always looked forward to these flights with VA.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Mar 2015
Total posts 235
Has anyone in this Forum actually flown in Business Class with VA in the last few days?
I have seen a couple of reports in other forums of people saying they have and the service was good.
Just what service if any can I expect in Business Class when I do travel in May?, so many conflicting reports.
Yes, it's a problem of the first world country but would be nice to know.
Hi Guest, join in the discussion on Qantas, Virgin restart flights with $165m Govt subsidy