Compulsory Covid-19 Vaccinations

Req not sure 99% make a ‘full’ recovery the ongoing chronic conditions for quite a few is a serious issue. I haven’t checked the figures but I’m sure someone will but 10% is a figure I seem to recall. So your figure of full recovery may be closer to 90%.

Patrick, I'm looking at the mainstream data such as is available on Worldometers that is compiled by John Hopkins I believe. 99.6% of global "patients" are in mild condition. This simply isn't the Spanish flu, the plague or even Ebola, which seems to have disappeared off the face of the Earth, because all we're hearing these days is "corona virus 19" and nothing else, as if there were only one virus capable of causing disease at any one time. Yet at the time (2015), Ebola was being touted as this virus with an incredibly high mortality rate but there were no quarantines or economy destroying lockdowns and border closures.

This is nothing new. In the past, a certain percentage of flu patients would also suffer ongoing conditions yet no one was hysterical about this or called for closed borders. Why not? Well, because at the time there was no agenda like there is now.

The curve is already starting to flatten - since around a month case numbers and deaths are falling. At this rate, new cases and deaths will be close to zero in around half a year from now.

So the only rational conclusion here is to simply say "false alarm" and let's get back to business the way it was before early 2020.

Although I'm reluctant to wait, I can hold out for another 6-9 months before travelling overseas, but would like to see normal travel resume by the end of the year, without any new travel requirements that didn't exist before March 2020. Such requirements are unjustified by science and are political in nature anyway. We all travelled in mass in 2000, 2003, 2005, 2010, 2015, 2019, some of these were "pandemic" years, the rest were normal. Nothing happened. There was no unusual morbidity or mortality by allowing travel to continue unabated during those years.

So there's no reason to introduce vaccine requirements or anything else now, unless you're trying to discourage travel, which is clearly what all this is about.

Freq your definition of mild comes into play here plus how you have extrapolated global data (which doesn’t exist for most countries) the US currently has 60,000 hospitalisations and around 120,000 daily infections. Now I’m not suggesting a 50% hospitalisations rate but some what more than the 0.4% you suggest even assuming all non hospitalised cases are ‘mild’ which from evidence of those that have had the bug isn’t the case. I agree waiting 6-9 months is a good idea as most will be vaccinated and the latest evidence from israel is that the vaccine works and reducing the severity of the disease. Your ant-vax suggestion seems oddly out of place.

Patrick, I can tell you are very much a pro-vaxxer dying to go out and get your shot as soon as it's available, but cherry picking statistics from one country does little to convince anyone that this "pandemic", which even people like the World Economic Forum's Klaus Schwab are referring to as "one of the mildest pandemics in history" is as bad as you make it out to be. It doesn't justify the use of a vaccine. So far the vaccine has caused far more collateral damage than what the virus has for most people who have returned a Covid-positive reading, many of whom have no symptoms. Let's be clear about that. I'm talking about most people, not some 90 year old with kidney disease who was close to death anyway, but after contracting the flu/covid seals his fate. There are always going to be exceptions here and there.

Let's dispense with the hysterics. We can argue all day about vaccines being a good idea or not to protect against certain diseases, but any rational person, even most pro-vaxxers, will surely do a risk/benefit analysis to see which ones are needed and which ones aren't.

Unless you're going to sub-Saharan Africa, are you going to get the yellow fever shot? No. Why would you? What about the cholera shot? Completely unnecessary for most types of travel. Only recommended if travelling to countries with very poor hygiene like India, Bangladesh etc. but even there it's rarely warranted for most travellers who are unlikely to find themselves spending time in the slums. The Covid shot isn't even recommended to under 18s, pregnant and breastfeeding women and a plethora of individuals depending on their individual health status. Ditto for malaria medication. Does the risk outweigh the benefit or vice versa? This question must be asked of every vaccine, drug and medical procedure.

There is no one size fits all. Let's keep things sensible and rational Patrick.

Freq given the previous true pandemic was the Spanish flu in 1919-1922 and all the ones before it had negligible health care, the fact that this one with superior public health and treatment is the mildest is to be expected and a testament to our health care that has improved over 100 years. The latest data from Israel which has the highest vaccination rate suggests that it reduces symptoms and keeps people out of hospitals, which for many of us is a good thing. Yes tge non cherry picked data suggests that around 20% of cases end up in hospital for some period of time. I take an annual flu shot to keep me out of bed for a week or two. I will certainly take this one as the chronic effects can be quite debilitating for some time, much more than the couple of weeks the flu can lay us up. Yes that is my cost benefit analysis. The vaccine risk is low and the health benefits are high.

Tripleplatinum. You mean propagandists for the pharmaceutical industry hyping up fear in order to sell their products? Go right ahead. It's YOU that's embarrassing yourself with your deranged extreme pro-vaxx propaganda. I'm not afraid of the 2-6 daily cases in a country of 25.6 million. The fact you are, suggests you have zero critical thinking skills or ability to make your own decisions. Remember there are vested interests developing these products and the fact you can't even accept a rational opinion without resorting to anger and ad hominem attacks suggests something seriously wrong with you. Besides, how do you I'm not a doctor? I happen to know many doctors, medical professionals and scientists who do not agree with this campaign of fear mongering and don't believe this vaccine is necessary.

In the mainstream press, we have news articles in today such as "South Africa suspends use of AZ vaccine" (see Channel Nine news website) due to lack of effectiveness against new variants. The Thai government quoted in the Bangkok Post said it doesn't want to make use of the "vaccine passport" due to concerns about vaccine effectiveness. It doesn't look like any of this is going well for those that seek to force us to use their products to travel.

I see quarantines continuing for some time to come, but at some point they'll simply vanish and we'll go back to the pre-March 2020 travel status quo. Just need a passport, plane ticket and visa depending on your destination. The way it should be. In the meantime, it's likely Australians will be allowed to travel across the ditch to NZ quarantine free, possibly with just a Covid negative test, in a couple of months from now.

Freq can we have some courtesy please. Nobody promoting vaccines are ‘deranged’. Otherwise we all are are in that boat. The reason Australia has only 5-6 cases a day is due to tight regulations and quarantine. The outbreaks to 100s per day were from single quarantine breaches. The fact that governments suspend a vaccine for more information is quite normal. The data from Israel suggests that vaccines do work in reducing the severity of the disease so that is why I will have it and have a paper saying so, so if I catch the bug somewhere else I won’t tie up their health system and more to the point my insurers. I think your prediction of vaccine free travel will go with Frequent Flyers from last year on various elections and when international flights will start. Again courtesy for the range of opinions. Note there are libel laws.

Patrick, I've been very courteous throughout all of the comments I've made here. Maybe you meant tripleplatinum, who decided to make a cheap shot because he didn't like what I wrote.

Actually, you will find most vaccine promoters are extremists and deranged (otherwise, they wouldn't resort to insults and personal attacks). It seems like all they know is how to force the rest of us into accepting their viewpoints with no contrary opinions allowed. It's fine if you believe vaccines work, but please don't force upon the rest of us what amounts to a belief system, which is almost religious in nature. Besides, a successful corona virus vaccine has never been developed and with all the mutations and all, it will be rendered useless after a few months necessitating a new shot. And don't force people into this whole "pro vs anti" polarized way of thinking. People can be OK with a tetanus shot but NOT OK with a rushed coronavirus vaccine.

I think you'll find it will be much harder to implement mandatory vaccine laws for travel than you think. You're cherry picking again from one country [Israel], but the various articles I've read in the news recently suggests that a vaccine passport is not going to be easy to implement and it will face a huge backlash. Period. IATA (despite developing one) is against the idea, preferring testing to vaccination in order to re-open borders. I'm simply quoting from mainstream news here, so why are you disagreeing with what they've said? Take it up with Nine News or news dot com dot au, the Bangkok Post, Bloomberg or any of the other sources I've cited. Even the head of Qantas, Alan Joyce, has backtracked a little from his comments about requiring a vaccine to travel with his airline, suggesting New Zealand and other "green lane" routes would be exempt and so would domestic travel.

It's almost as if the "conspiracy theorists" were right. I heard people making predictions way back in 2016-17 that the decade starting in 2020 would be when vaccines are pushed on adults big time, starting with travel. I also recall reading in 2018 about a European vaccine passport being developed, but it was unclear at the time about whether that was simply an electronic vaccine record that could be shared between EU governments or the idea was for travel. The implementation date was said to be 2023.

I'm not nearly as optimistic as regular flyer is on predictions about travel and I also find some of his various statements to be rather bizarre, like his disagreements with timelines on when masks became mandatory for air travel in other parts of the world, which a simple Google search would reveal as being around mid-2020 and not now as he suggests.

I'm simply saying that people like you are starting to sound like "conspiracy theorists" for suggesting life won't go back to normal because of this exaggerated "pandemic".

Freq not sure using data from the only country with data available on widespread vaccination is cherry picking. There is a very good article in today’s SMH by Blakely and Oukrim explaining all of this. If I’m on a ‘conspiracy theory’, it is widely (almost universally) shared and that is the public health responses we have in countries like NZ, Australia and Taiwan are good and effective. I reckon life will go back to normal in a couple of years but with an annual COVID shot much like our annual flu shot, and COVID will join the other common cold corona viruses.

Oh gosh tripleplatinum, again showing your ignorance. Qanon is controlled opposition and I've never listened to whoever that is. You really are a sad individual, unable to distinguish between fact and fiction, nor able to realize there are MANY doctors, scientists, medical professionals who are urging restraint and do not believe this vaccine is necessary.

You are spreading the usual propaganda via strawman arguments, ratcheting up the hysteria.

You really think airlines/countries will adopt a mandatory vaccination program that easily? Geez you are gullible. Of course to an extremist like you, that would make you very happy, since you have just outed yourself as someone with a conflict of interest. In reality, I don't see it happening. Already the house of cards is precariously close to falling.

Patrick, sure, I think there is a good possibility this Covid shot could become an annual event like the flu shot, but I don't see it becoming more than that. Governments have already said it will be voluntary, and I think the uptake will be quite large without needing to use undue coercion.

Even if we disagree on some things, you are at least a rational person. Unlike the other guy, who simply shouts insults because I don't believe in his almost religious way of looking at things.

Are you Dr. John Cunningham? Or Dr Paul Offit? Or perhaps Dorit Rubenstein Reiss? You certainly sound like these people the way you become angry when challenged.

@TheFreqFlyer...I really commend you for your patience in trying to argue common sense to some complete imbeciles who just lie outright to justify their own insecurities and fears. I can no longer do it. Those who want to take experimental agents should just go ahead and do so. The offer of such agents to me is declined and that jab offer can be made available to a more willing subject. Go forth and be saved!

Going back to my OP.....

I still see no published research for evidence of transmission blocking by any of the approved vaccines or candidates in development. If Big Pharma has the evidence then - curiously - they are doing a great job keeping it quiet. Countries like Israel with well-progressed vaccination programs have provided no evidence. The UK's R Number today is c.0.7-0.9 - fantastic news - but it's their lockdown restrictions getting them there, not their vaccination program. Sure, some experts are expressing confidence we'll eventually get evidence for transmission blocking. But they don't tell us why they are confident, hardly inspiring. Other experts are being rather more open and honest in stating clearly - there is no evidence. None.

So back to Qantas and their justification for a no-jab, no-fly edict. Protecting aircrew? It's for Qantas and their employees to decide if workforce vaccination will be compulsory. Protecting passengers? That has to be a decision for individual passengers. If you think you are in a vulnerable group, or are just worried about the medical risk, then don't fly until you have been vaccinated.

The rest of us might want to know what medical outcome is achieved by our compulsory vaccination? What's the prize?

Rabbie as many have said transmission is not blocked but reduced simply by lower viral load through reduced infection levels in the vaccinated person, that is why we will still have to be careful until most are vaccinated, so then it becomes like a common cold. There are mild(we) symptoms so people are kept out of hospitals. The ‘prize’ or medical outcome, in your terms is getting less sick, something I will certainly take.