Does anyone know what medical advice Qantas got to make vaccinations mandatory? None of the vaccines stop transmission - none have even been tested for effectiveness against transmission. Masks are probably more effective than vaccinations are against transmission. If you are not in a vulnerable group, your medical risk is trivial so vaccination is not required. Is it just a cynical marketing ploy to sell more tickets to gullible people who think it makes them safer somehow?
Rabbie not sure the medical risk is trivial as the proportion of cases (of all ages) that end up in hospital is any indication (around 20%), hence the need for vaccination. The medical advice on vaccination is widespread and readily accessible; it stops you getting really sick (everybody is vulnerable) thus making everybody ‘safer’ as you suggest. Whether Qantas requires it or governments require it for entry is rather moot; and the latest data is vaccination does reduce transmission (yes they have been tested, google can be your friend) So all in all a bit of a no-brainer.
I'm generally supportive of the principle that vaccination should be required for people to gather indoors in close proximity, such as on an aircraft. Or, to be equally fair but less realistic, in a restaurant or on a tram. The question is, what exceptions are necessary to avoid draconian outcomes. If someone has other medical conditions that might be made worse by vaccination, and have a medical certificate to support that, do they still not get to fly? I won't labour the point with other examples, you see where I'm coming from. We cannot allow Qantas or any other private company providing an essential public service to make the rules entirely from their own playbook.
I'm generally supportive of the principle that vaccination should be required for people to gather indoors in close proximity, such as on an aircraft. Or, to be equally fair but less realistic, in a restaurant or on a tram. The question is, what exceptions are necessary to avoid draconian outcomes. If someone has other medical conditions that might be made worse by vaccination, and have a medical certificate to support that, do they still not get to fly? I won't labour the point with other examples, you see where I'm coming from. We cannot allow Qantas or any other private company providing an essential public service to make the rules entirely from their own playbook.
Tommy I'm sure standard medical exemptions will apply. Note airlines do not take passengers already with certain conditions (late pregnancy being one but there are others, usually around highly infections diseases). The phrase essential public service could engender debate. Weve ben doing wthout it for a year now!!!
Qantas is never gonna be able to mandate medical procedures. You heard it from me. Sure you can deny boarding to a women in late stage pregnancy, but denying someone boarding if they haven't had a particular medical procedure is open discrimination. Pregnancy is a completely different medical state compared with injecting a foreign body. Only simple minds would not see the difference. If Qantas chooses to outwardly discriminate on the basis that someone has not had a certain medical procedure, I am sure that you will see it very strongly challenged in the courts. And Qantas are not going to want to waste what little cash they have left.
Medical advice on vaccinations will be made by health experts and the government. They won't be made by the CEO of an airline. Nothing more than media posturing.
Qantas is never gonna be able to mandate medical procedures. You heard it from me. Sure you can deny boarding to a women in late stage pregnancy, but denying someone boarding if they haven't had a particular medical procedure is open discrimination. Pregnancy is a completely different medical state compared with injecting a foreign body. Only simple minds would not see the difference. If Qantas chooses to outwardly discriminate on the basis that someone has not had a certain medical procedure, I am sure that you will see it very strongly challenged in the courts. And Qantas are not going to want to waste what little cash they have left.
Last editedby GoRobin at Feb 04, 2021, 03:32 PM.
Last editedby GoRobin at Feb 04, 2021, 04:24 PM.
GoRobin if it is a public health procedure about the safety of passengers of course they can insist as they don’t want to be held liable (and strongly challenged in the courts as you suggest). The rights of carriage laws vary a bit around the world but Qantas can insist and regularly do on medical and other grounds. The grounds for discrimination are clearly spelt out and contravening the public health of other passengers isn’t one of them.
Medical advice on vaccinations will be made by health experts and the government. They won't be made by the CEO of an airline. Nothing more than media posturing.
KW72 that entirely depends on the government (and the health experts) and if Qantas feels a government is ignoring public health (think Trump, Brazil), of course it can protect other passengers and its crew.
patrickk...just nonsense what you say. Lock yourself away until you feel safe to come out into the world. There are hundreds of millions of viruses out there and the human body has evolved well to take care of the onslaught and has been doing well for millennia.
Agree with GoRobin and KW72. This won't fly. I don't think even governments are going to push for or impose mandatory vaccination for entry, but of course they'll have the final say not private corporations like Qantas. I highly doubt the Australian government, despite what has been said recently, can mandate a vaccine on a returning citizen (which may also include permanent residents). That would be discrimination and contravene international conventions. An Australian citizen has an automatic right of return, and can't be denied entry on any grounds. Given the vaccine will be voluntary for Australian residents, I can't see how a citizen returning to the country should be treated any different.
Non-citizen, non-resident foreigners perhaps yes, which could be what is meant by the phrase "visitors to Australia". Clearly Aussies aren't visitors. It is hoped it won't come to that, and in my opinion I don't see it happening either, at least not anytime soon.
Last editedby TheFreqFlyer at Feb 05, 2021, 02:03 AM.
I'm generally supportive of the principle that vaccination should be required for people to gather indoors in close proximity, such as on an aircraft. Or, to be equally fair but less realistic, in a restaurant or on a tram. The question is, what exceptions are necessary to avoid draconian outcomes. If someone has other medical conditions that might be made worse by vaccination, and have a medical certificate to support that, do they still not get to fly? I won't labour the point with other examples, you see where I'm coming from. We cannot allow Qantas or any other private company providing an essential public service to make the rules entirely from their own playbook.
Tommy, your statement is somewhat contradictory. It would be draconian to require vaccination to be in public places to begin with. Requiring one for air travel would be bad enough, but for urban public transport, to eat at a restaurant etc.? Sure, I've heard such suggestions being floated around for years, but I can assure you it makes neither good policy sense nor would people adhere to it. It just wouldn't work. The opposition to it would be monumental, you'd have calls for boycotts of businesses that employ the practice, as well as protests going on for days or weeks, it would never end. Of course I don't think Qantas can or will impose this rule on their own volition. Governments will have the final say.
Let's not worry about this right now. I think it's unlikely to happen and even if it did, wouldn't be for a long time to come, certainly not happening in 2021 that's for sure.
patrickk...just nonsense what you say. Lock yourself away until you feel safe to come out into the world. There are hundreds of millions of viruses out there and the human body has evolved well to take care of the onslaught and has been doing well for millennia.
Last editedby GoRobin at Feb 04, 2021, 09:15 PM.
I agree GoRobin where I am we have zero community transmission most days and the hospitals work fine. Not quite being locked away but certainly can’t travel outside our country which is fine for now and probably the rest of the year.
I'm generally supportive of the principle that vaccination should be required for people to gather indoors in close proximity, such as on an aircraft. Or, to be equally fair but less realistic, in a restaurant or on a tram. The question is, what exceptions are necessary to avoid draconian outcomes. If someone has other medical conditions that might be made worse by vaccination, and have a medical certificate to support that, do they still not get to fly? I won't labour the point with other examples, you see where I'm coming from. We cannot allow Qantas or any other private company providing an essential public service to make the rules entirely from their own playbook.
Tommy, your statement is somewhat contradictory. It would be draconian to require vaccination to be in public places to begin with. Requiring one for air travel would be bad enough, but for urban public transport, to eat at a restaurant etc.? Sure, I've heard such suggestions being floated around for years, but I can assure you it makes neither good policy sense nor would people adhere to it. It just wouldn't work. The opposition to it would be monumental, you'd have calls for boycotts of businesses that employ the practice, as well as protests going on for days or weeks, it would never end. Of course I don't think Qantas can or will impose this rule on their own volition. Governments will have the final say.
Let's not worry about this right now. I think it's unlikely to happen and even if it did, wouldn't be for a long time to come, certainly not happening in 2021 that's for sure.
freq it already has come to pass compulsory masks in various settings including public transport and tge sky hasn’t fallen, the opposition is not monumental (it can meet in a phone box), no boycotts of business, and yes people to adhere to it. I’ve been on a two hour flight with masks and next week a four hour train journey. Your prediction for 2021 is already out of date and we’re only one month in.
As I read it, TheFreqFlyer was only predicting that mandating covid vaccination would not happen in 2021 if ever for a multitude of reasons. Compulsory mask wearing is a far cry from compulsory medical procedures. Any fool can see that?
Patrick, it would be good if you could stick to the topic. Masks aren't the same as vaccines. Opposition to vaccines being required to enter businesses would be monumental. Opposition to wearing masks exists, but it just isn't the same thing. You're comparing apples and oranges. Not to mention that mask rules change all the time; in Victoria masks were required for 4 months whenever you left home, now only in indoor public spaces. In Greater Sydney, NSW, mask laws were first introduced in early January to cover public transport, shopping malls and most types of indoor public spaces. 4 weeks later, masks are no longer required to enter shopping malls, but remain compulsory in all other settings they've been applied to.
rabbieb
rabbieb
Member since 31 Dec 2017
Total posts 6
Does anyone know what medical advice Qantas got to make vaccinations mandatory? None of the vaccines stop transmission - none have even been tested for effectiveness against transmission. Masks are probably more effective than vaccinations are against transmission. If you are not in a vulnerable group, your medical risk is trivial so vaccination is not required. Is it just a cynical marketing ploy to sell more tickets to gullible people who think it makes them safer somehow?
patrickk
patrickk
Qantas
Member since 19 Apr 2012
Total posts 737
Rabbie not sure the medical risk is trivial as the proportion of cases (of all ages) that end up in hospital is any indication (around 20%), hence the need for vaccination. The medical advice on vaccination is widespread and readily accessible; it stops you getting really sick (everybody is vulnerable) thus making everybody ‘safer’ as you suggest. Whether Qantas requires it or governments require it for entry is rather moot; and the latest data is vaccination does reduce transmission (yes they have been tested, google can be your friend) So all in all a bit of a no-brainer.
tommygun
tommygun
Delta Air Lines - SkyMiles
Member since 16 Oct 2017
Total posts 291
I'm generally supportive of the principle that vaccination should be required for people to gather indoors in close proximity, such as on an aircraft. Or, to be equally fair but less realistic, in a restaurant or on a tram. The question is, what exceptions are necessary to avoid draconian outcomes. If someone has other medical conditions that might be made worse by vaccination, and have a medical certificate to support that, do they still not get to fly? I won't labour the point with other examples, you see where I'm coming from. We cannot allow Qantas or any other private company providing an essential public service to make the rules entirely from their own playbook.
patrickk
patrickk
Qantas
Member since 19 Apr 2012
Total posts 737
Originally Posted by tommygun
I'm generally supportive of the principle that vaccination should be required for people to gather indoors in close proximity, such as on an aircraft. Or, to be equally fair but less realistic, in a restaurant or on a tram. The question is, what exceptions are necessary to avoid draconian outcomes. If someone has other medical conditions that might be made worse by vaccination, and have a medical certificate to support that, do they still not get to fly? I won't labour the point with other examples, you see where I'm coming from. We cannot allow Qantas or any other private company providing an essential public service to make the rules entirely from their own playbook.
Tommy I'm sure standard medical exemptions will apply. Note airlines do not take passengers already with certain conditions (late pregnancy being one but there are others, usually around highly infections diseases). The phrase essential public service could engender debate. Weve ben doing wthout it for a year now!!!
GoRobin
GoRobin
Member since 07 May 2020
Total posts 113
Qantas is never gonna be able to mandate medical procedures. You heard it from me. Sure you can deny boarding to a women in late stage pregnancy, but denying someone boarding if they haven't had a particular medical procedure is open discrimination. Pregnancy is a completely different medical state compared with injecting a foreign body. Only simple minds would not see the difference. If Qantas chooses to outwardly discriminate on the basis that someone has not had a certain medical procedure, I am sure that you will see it very strongly challenged in the courts. And Qantas are not going to want to waste what little cash they have left.
KW72 Banned
KW72 Banned
Member since 17 Jun 2020
Total posts 66
Medical advice on vaccinations will be made by health experts and the government. They won't be made by the CEO of an airline. Nothing more than media posturing.
patrickk
patrickk
Qantas
Member since 19 Apr 2012
Total posts 737
Originally Posted by GoRobin
Qantas is never gonna be able to mandate medical procedures. You heard it from me. Sure you can deny boarding to a women in late stage pregnancy, but denying someone boarding if they haven't had a particular medical procedure is open discrimination. Pregnancy is a completely different medical state compared with injecting a foreign body. Only simple minds would not see the difference. If Qantas chooses to outwardly discriminate on the basis that someone has not had a certain medical procedure, I am sure that you will see it very strongly challenged in the courts. And Qantas are not going to want to waste what little cash they have left.
patrickk
patrickk
Qantas
Member since 19 Apr 2012
Total posts 737
Originally Posted by KW72
Medical advice on vaccinations will be made by health experts and the government. They won't be made by the CEO of an airline. Nothing more than media posturing.
GoRobin
GoRobin
Member since 07 May 2020
Total posts 113
patrickk...just nonsense what you say. Lock yourself away until you feel safe to come out into the world. There are hundreds of millions of viruses out there and the human body has evolved well to take care of the onslaught and has been doing well for millennia.
TheFreqFlyer
TheFreqFlyer
Member since 05 Oct 2017
Total posts 89
Agree with GoRobin and KW72. This won't fly. I don't think even governments are going to push for or impose mandatory vaccination for entry, but of course they'll have the final say not private corporations like Qantas. I highly doubt the Australian government, despite what has been said recently, can mandate a vaccine on a returning citizen (which may also include permanent residents). That would be discrimination and contravene international conventions. An Australian citizen has an automatic right of return, and can't be denied entry on any grounds. Given the vaccine will be voluntary for Australian residents, I can't see how a citizen returning to the country should be treated any different.
Non-citizen, non-resident foreigners perhaps yes, which could be what is meant by the phrase "visitors to Australia". Clearly Aussies aren't visitors. It is hoped it won't come to that, and in my opinion I don't see it happening either, at least not anytime soon.
TheFreqFlyer
TheFreqFlyer
Member since 05 Oct 2017
Total posts 89
Originally Posted by tommygun
I'm generally supportive of the principle that vaccination should be required for people to gather indoors in close proximity, such as on an aircraft. Or, to be equally fair but less realistic, in a restaurant or on a tram. The question is, what exceptions are necessary to avoid draconian outcomes. If someone has other medical conditions that might be made worse by vaccination, and have a medical certificate to support that, do they still not get to fly? I won't labour the point with other examples, you see where I'm coming from. We cannot allow Qantas or any other private company providing an essential public service to make the rules entirely from their own playbook.
Tommy, your statement is somewhat contradictory. It would be draconian to require vaccination to be in public places to begin with. Requiring one for air travel would be bad enough, but for urban public transport, to eat at a restaurant etc.? Sure, I've heard such suggestions being floated around for years, but I can assure you it makes neither good policy sense nor would people adhere to it. It just wouldn't work. The opposition to it would be monumental, you'd have calls for boycotts of businesses that employ the practice, as well as protests going on for days or weeks, it would never end. Of course I don't think Qantas can or will impose this rule on their own volition. Governments will have the final say.
Let's not worry about this right now. I think it's unlikely to happen and even if it did, wouldn't be for a long time to come, certainly not happening in 2021 that's for sure.
patrickk
patrickk
Qantas
Member since 19 Apr 2012
Total posts 737
Originally Posted by GoRobin
patrickk...just nonsense what you say. Lock yourself away until you feel safe to come out into the world. There are hundreds of millions of viruses out there and the human body has evolved well to take care of the onslaught and has been doing well for millennia.
patrickk
patrickk
Qantas
Member since 19 Apr 2012
Total posts 737
Originally Posted by TheFreqFlyer
Originally Posted by tommygun
I'm generally supportive of the principle that vaccination should be required for people to gather indoors in close proximity, such as on an aircraft. Or, to be equally fair but less realistic, in a restaurant or on a tram. The question is, what exceptions are necessary to avoid draconian outcomes. If someone has other medical conditions that might be made worse by vaccination, and have a medical certificate to support that, do they still not get to fly? I won't labour the point with other examples, you see where I'm coming from. We cannot allow Qantas or any other private company providing an essential public service to make the rules entirely from their own playbook.
Tommy, your statement is somewhat contradictory. It would be draconian to require vaccination to be in public places to begin with. Requiring one for air travel would be bad enough, but for urban public transport, to eat at a restaurant etc.? Sure, I've heard such suggestions being floated around for years, but I can assure you it makes neither good policy sense nor would people adhere to it. It just wouldn't work. The opposition to it would be monumental, you'd have calls for boycotts of businesses that employ the practice, as well as protests going on for days or weeks, it would never end. Of course I don't think Qantas can or will impose this rule on their own volition. Governments will have the final say.
Let's not worry about this right now. I think it's unlikely to happen and even if it did, wouldn't be for a long time to come, certainly not happening in 2021 that's for sure.
GoRobin
GoRobin
Member since 07 May 2020
Total posts 113
As I read it, TheFreqFlyer was only predicting that mandating covid vaccination would not happen in 2021 if ever for a multitude of reasons. Compulsory mask wearing is a far cry from compulsory medical procedures. Any fool can see that?
TheFreqFlyer
TheFreqFlyer
Member since 05 Oct 2017
Total posts 89
Patrick, it would be good if you could stick to the topic. Masks aren't the same as vaccines. Opposition to vaccines being required to enter businesses would be monumental. Opposition to wearing masks exists, but it just isn't the same thing. You're comparing apples and oranges. Not to mention that mask rules change all the time; in Victoria masks were required for 4 months whenever you left home, now only in indoor public spaces. In Greater Sydney, NSW, mask laws were first introduced in early January to cover public transport, shopping malls and most types of indoor public spaces. 4 weeks later, masks are no longer required to enter shopping malls, but remain compulsory in all other settings they've been applied to.
Over time, the rules will evolve further.