I still see no published research for evidence of transmission blocking by any of the approved vaccines or candidates in development. If Big Pharma has the evidence then - curiously - they are doing a great job keeping it quiet. Countries like Israel with well-progressed vaccination programs have provided no evidence. The UK's R Number today is c.0.7-0.9 - fantastic news - but it's their lockdown restrictions getting them there, not their vaccination program. Sure, some experts are expressing confidence we'll eventually get evidence for transmission blocking. But they don't tell us why they are confident, hardly inspiring. Other experts are being rather more open and honest in stating clearly - there is no evidence. None.
So back to Qantas and their justification for a no-jab, no-fly edict. Protecting aircrew? It's for Qantas and their employees to decide if workforce vaccination will be compulsory. Protecting passengers? That has to be a decision for individual passengers. If you think you are in a vulnerable group, or are just worried about the medical risk, then don't fly until you have been vaccinated.
The rest of us might want to know what medical outcome is achieved by our compulsory vaccination? What's the prize?
Rabbie the data coming out of Israel (too early to be peer reviewed) with most vaccinated at least once has shown a marked drop in cases. A little more work for a definitive causal effect, but it is more than probably there.
tripleplatinum2, speaking of calling the kettle black, it's your crass arrogance and paranoia that is showing through. I'm the rational headed one, but being rational is now being paranoid? Of course, a propagandist with an agenda like you likes twisting the meaning of words in typical Orwellian fashion, but ultimately, intelligent people like me can see through your tired lies. What are you going to say next "oh but Wakefield is a fraud?" People like you are incredibly predictable and have very limited intelligence.
The phrase of the month is that "it's a coincidence". You can apply this to any discussion around viruses and vaccinations if you can't prove it, and it suits your argument.
I’m not sure what the coincidence refers to but if there are 20 cases of blood clots in 30 million doses then that certainly doesn’t suggest a cause so at best a coincidence. It isn’t about suiting arguments but a sensible statistical observation. Also not sure the ‘experimental agent’ argument can hold up after 30million doses and plummeting hospital admissions.
patrickk...I would suggest that the decline in covid mortality in the UK is just a coincidence and has little to do with vaccinations. It has much more to do with the fact that everyone in the UK has been locked up for several months. So a no brainer conclusion or just coincidence. Even the UK government is finally admitting publicly what they already know is that the vaccination will not prevent you from getting infected or spreading. They are also mentioning that they do not have confidence that Astrazeneca experimental agent is even effective against the mutants so they probably won't let anyone leave the UK this summer. Let's see. And it is an experimental agent anyway because the phase 3 trial has only just begun. After 3 or 4 years of solid safety data will anybody be able to call it as having long term safety. But if you feel good about it then go for it. Just remember that if you by some remote chance suffer an adverse reaction or death, you have nobody to sue. The government has given these pharma companies exemption from liability. I wonder why? So you will be on your own.
Excellent point GoRobin. Another thing to keep in mind, aside from the obvious risks in rushing to get an emergency use vaccine, is the likelihood it won't even be accepted for travel (like they've been claiming relentlessly in the media) if you've had it more than 3 months ago. Several countries are saying they will reduce the quarantine time or allow you to skip quarantine, if you received 2 doses of a coronavirus vaccine between 14 days and no later than 3 months ago. So if someone got theirs 4 months ago, too bad, you have to get vaccinated again, further exacerbating the health risks. Based on this, it almost looks like one would need to get vaccinated before every overseas trip! And this is no hyperbole, as one prominent doctor actually suggested this recently.
As you have correctly mentioned and I agree with, I believe that once travel resumes normally, these vaccine passports won't work. There are just too many variables and "what ifs" as well as political factors like some countries, that don't have a good relationship with Russia and China, not wanting to accept vaccines from these countries and possibly countries not on a good footing with America/Europe/the West, not accepting western vaccines, yet there may be no alternative vaccines available as most countries only have access to stock from 1-3 manufacturers not all of them.
The way I see it is all of this is a marketing strategy to get as many people vaccinated as possible.
Once restrictions are lifted, it may initially be vaccine OR a test, OR a medical exemption, which governments will be obligated to honour. I believe it won't take too long after that for all requirements related to testing or vaccination to be lifted.
tripleplatinum2, speaking of calling the kettle black, it's your crass arrogance and paranoia that is showing through. I'm the rational headed one, but being rational is now being paranoid? Of course, a propagandist with an agenda like you likes twisting the meaning of words in typical Orwellian fashion, but ultimately, intelligent people like me can see through your tired lies. What are you going to say next "oh but Wakefield is a fraud?" People like you are incredibly predictable and have very limited intelligence.
Paranoia? Coming from someone believing anti vax conspiracy theories? Wow, just wow. You are all truly are indistinguishable from satire at this point!
Whatever dude. Ad hominems and cheap shots only make you look more ridiculous. A career in television might be better suited to you.
patrickk...I would suggest that the decline in covid mortality in the UK is just a coincidence and has little to do with vaccinations. It has much more to do with the fact that everyone in the UK has been locked up for several months. So a no brainer conclusion or just coincidence. Even the UK government is finally admitting publicly what they already know is that the vaccination will not prevent you from getting infected or spreading. They are also mentioning that they do not have confidence that Astrazeneca experimental agent is even effective against the mutants so they probably won't let anyone leave the UK this summer. Let's see. And it is an experimental agent anyway because the phase 3 trial has only just begun. After 3 or 4 years of solid safety data will anybody be able to call it as having long term safety. But if you feel good about it then go for it. Just remember that if you by some remote chance suffer an adverse reaction or death, you have nobody to sue. The government has given these pharma companies exemption from liability. I wonder why? So you will be on your own.
GoRobin the rate of infections in the UK is fairly stable as indicated by recent data while hospitalisations have plummeted which is exactly what the vaccine was designed to do keep people out of hospitals and deaths. The vaccine was never designed to stop people getting infected but reducing the rate of infections and the severity; once the severity is down to heavy cold which is where it is heading then we will be travelling again. The unknown issue is long COVID but so far it seems to be from severe cases. I suspect three months of data from hundreds of millions will be more than enough. Not sure which mutations you are referring to but it seems to be effective against the common ones. It seems Australians will be travelling to New Zealand first without vaccines or quarantine, Singapore with vaccination and no quarantine from the middle of the year and elsewhere with vaccinations and reduced or at home quarantine later in the year when most are vaccinated or have access to it. Not sure what Boris is planning for the UK.
It's all a coincidence patrickk. If you "lockup" the population as in Australia and NZ and eliminate the virus, there is no need for vaccination. If you keep the population locked away and vaccinate them, the result is the same. There has been so much hot air about bubbles for so long it is all just a joke. Keep dreaming.
patrickk
patrickk
Qantas
Member since 19 Apr 2012
Total posts 737
Originally Posted by rabbieb
Going back to my OP.....
I still see no published research for evidence of transmission blocking by any of the approved vaccines or candidates in development. If Big Pharma has the evidence then - curiously - they are doing a great job keeping it quiet. Countries like Israel with well-progressed vaccination programs have provided no evidence. The UK's R Number today is c.0.7-0.9 - fantastic news - but it's their lockdown restrictions getting them there, not their vaccination program. Sure, some experts are expressing confidence we'll eventually get evidence for transmission blocking. But they don't tell us why they are confident, hardly inspiring. Other experts are being rather more open and honest in stating clearly - there is no evidence. None.
So back to Qantas and their justification for a no-jab, no-fly edict. Protecting aircrew? It's for Qantas and their employees to decide if workforce vaccination will be compulsory. Protecting passengers? That has to be a decision for individual passengers. If you think you are in a vulnerable group, or are just worried about the medical risk, then don't fly until you have been vaccinated.
The rest of us might want to know what medical outcome is achieved by our compulsory vaccination? What's the prize?
TheFreqFlyer
TheFreqFlyer
Member since 05 Oct 2017
Total posts 89
tripleplatinum2, speaking of calling the kettle black, it's your crass arrogance and paranoia that is showing through. I'm the rational headed one, but being rational is now being paranoid? Of course, a propagandist with an agenda like you likes twisting the meaning of words in typical Orwellian fashion, but ultimately, intelligent people like me can see through your tired lies. What are you going to say next "oh but Wakefield is a fraud?" People like you are incredibly predictable and have very limited intelligence.
GoRobin
GoRobin
Member since 07 May 2020
Total posts 113
The phrase of the month is that "it's a coincidence". You can apply this to any discussion around viruses and vaccinations if you can't prove it, and it suits your argument.
patrickk
patrickk
Qantas
Member since 19 Apr 2012
Total posts 737
I’m not sure what the coincidence refers to but if there are 20 cases of blood clots in 30 million doses then that certainly doesn’t suggest a cause so at best a coincidence. It isn’t about suiting arguments but a sensible statistical observation. Also not sure the ‘experimental agent’ argument can hold up after 30million doses and plummeting hospital admissions.
GoRobin
GoRobin
Member since 07 May 2020
Total posts 113
patrickk...I would suggest that the decline in covid mortality in the UK is just a coincidence and has little to do with vaccinations. It has much more to do with the fact that everyone in the UK has been locked up for several months. So a no brainer conclusion or just coincidence. Even the UK government is finally admitting publicly what they already know is that the vaccination will not prevent you from getting infected or spreading. They are also mentioning that they do not have confidence that Astrazeneca experimental agent is even effective against the mutants so they probably won't let anyone leave the UK this summer. Let's see. And it is an experimental agent anyway because the phase 3 trial has only just begun. After 3 or 4 years of solid safety data will anybody be able to call it as having long term safety. But if you feel good about it then go for it. Just remember that if you by some remote chance suffer an adverse reaction or death, you have nobody to sue. The government has given these pharma companies exemption from liability. I wonder why? So you will be on your own.
TheFreqFlyer
TheFreqFlyer
Member since 05 Oct 2017
Total posts 89
Excellent point GoRobin. Another thing to keep in mind, aside from the obvious risks in rushing to get an emergency use vaccine, is the likelihood it won't even be accepted for travel (like they've been claiming relentlessly in the media) if you've had it more than 3 months ago. Several countries are saying they will reduce the quarantine time or allow you to skip quarantine, if you received 2 doses of a coronavirus vaccine between 14 days and no later than 3 months ago. So if someone got theirs 4 months ago, too bad, you have to get vaccinated again, further exacerbating the health risks. Based on this, it almost looks like one would need to get vaccinated before every overseas trip! And this is no hyperbole, as one prominent doctor actually suggested this recently.
As you have correctly mentioned and I agree with, I believe that once travel resumes normally, these vaccine passports won't work. There are just too many variables and "what ifs" as well as political factors like some countries, that don't have a good relationship with Russia and China, not wanting to accept vaccines from these countries and possibly countries not on a good footing with America/Europe/the West, not accepting western vaccines, yet there may be no alternative vaccines available as most countries only have access to stock from 1-3 manufacturers not all of them.
The way I see it is all of this is a marketing strategy to get as many people vaccinated as possible.
Once restrictions are lifted, it may initially be vaccine OR a test, OR a medical exemption, which governments will be obligated to honour. I believe it won't take too long after that for all requirements related to testing or vaccination to be lifted.
TheFreqFlyer
TheFreqFlyer
Member since 05 Oct 2017
Total posts 89
Originally Posted by tripleplatinum2
Originally Posted by TheFreqFlyer
tripleplatinum2, speaking of calling the kettle black, it's your crass arrogance and paranoia that is showing through. I'm the rational headed one, but being rational is now being paranoid? Of course, a propagandist with an agenda like you likes twisting the meaning of words in typical Orwellian fashion, but ultimately, intelligent people like me can see through your tired lies. What are you going to say next "oh but Wakefield is a fraud?" People like you are incredibly predictable and have very limited intelligence.
patrickk
patrickk
Qantas
Member since 19 Apr 2012
Total posts 737
Originally Posted by GoRobin
patrickk...I would suggest that the decline in covid mortality in the UK is just a coincidence and has little to do with vaccinations. It has much more to do with the fact that everyone in the UK has been locked up for several months. So a no brainer conclusion or just coincidence. Even the UK government is finally admitting publicly what they already know is that the vaccination will not prevent you from getting infected or spreading. They are also mentioning that they do not have confidence that Astrazeneca experimental agent is even effective against the mutants so they probably won't let anyone leave the UK this summer. Let's see. And it is an experimental agent anyway because the phase 3 trial has only just begun. After 3 or 4 years of solid safety data will anybody be able to call it as having long term safety. But if you feel good about it then go for it. Just remember that if you by some remote chance suffer an adverse reaction or death, you have nobody to sue. The government has given these pharma companies exemption from liability. I wonder why? So you will be on your own.
GoRobin
GoRobin
Member since 07 May 2020
Total posts 113
It's all a coincidence patrickk. If you "lockup" the population as in Australia and NZ and eliminate the virus, there is no need for vaccination. If you keep the population locked away and vaccinate them, the result is the same. There has been so much hot air about bubbles for so long it is all just a joke. Keep dreaming.