Australian border closure, overseas flight ban to remain until 2021

There is talk that the borders will be closed for the 10 - 15 years as that is how long the average vaccine takes to develop. 

Well that sort of talk is ridiculous....and just not true  

Travellz, in other words, borders will never reopen.

Travellz, but yeah, you do have a point. I wouldn't put it past them to do something like that. The NT has already said: no open borders for at least 18 months. Victorians could be wearing masks and undergo restrictions for many years to come. These unprecedented restrictions on everyday life are not going away anytime soon, and just when you thought they might (like in some European countries) they start enacting new restrictions and it's back to square one.

Thats ludicrous.  There will be an uproar. 

I'm sure by then Australia will most definately had enough. We are amongst the least affected countries of this virus. We have all done the right things and taken precautions  and we continue to do so. If it was to continue for that long, the public will feel offended that the government keeps on treating us as if we are misbehaving children.

We would have chosen another couple of prime ministers by then, we will find a prime minister that will not restrict us from visiting our loved ones in other countries.

Image had China contained the virus to Wuhan instead of allowing it to spread throughout the world...

This is ludicrous. I'm meant to be going to America to get married & I'm forced to be stuck here against my will, with no way of being able to see my fiancee' indefinately.

If an individual is taking all precautions they shouldnt be told they are not allowed to travel. It just isnt fair. In all honesty, I believe they have control of the virus & a vaccine for it, they are just making things sound worse than what it really is, in order to keep control ofthe people.

Its more than ridiculous. Its cruel and wrong and a flagrant abuse of our human rights. Its so drastically out of proportion to the risks that its no wonder that people have began to turn to 'conspiracies' to explain what is happening. 

As a physician who's had one friend lose her father to COVID and another lose his child, I can assure you this virus is definitely not under control and they are not exaggerating the seriousness of it.

Then let us deal with the consequences ourselves. Let us Australian's vote to be able to risk getting some virus for travelling to meet our loved ones, friends, and family, as well as opening the economy back again. How about the deaths caused by being forced to remain indoors and cases of anxiety and heartache increasing? "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

If the virus is rife in the community, you may not be the one at risk. It's easy to gamble with the health of others. And the health consequences of the lockdown are ambiguous. Many health outcomes have improved.

I think VIC also killed this for us. When doing checks people were not home after being tested for COVID-19. It is always the 1% that ruins it for the rest of us.

If you remember back to March (almost an eternity ago) when two week quarantine was announced but in your own home - it was exactly this (lack of compliance) that caused the hotel quarantine system to be set up in the first place.

IMO (if/when this is allowed) it should also be restricted to situations where the returned traveller will be the only resident in the household, otherwise everyone else in the household will get infected.

Nah, they would have imposed it anyway.

More like 25 %

Not just VIC. Non-compliance happened everywhere, VIC just happened to fall victim to a rapid community spread. 

People should not be getting forced to go somewhere of the governments choosing, then make them pay excessive amounts for it because they might have Covid, while people who do have Covid are allowed to go home.

The only people who should be made to go to a government picked location for self isolation, both returning travelers and confirmed local cases, are those who have shown they can't/won't comply with the isolation orders.

The minority of people who refuse to isolate should be sent to a hotel and be made to pay, not everyone.

Except that's not how governments think. It's always a "one size fits all" mentality. Except for the elite of course. Besides, how would you know who will comply and who won't?

In some countries like Singapore, it depends on the country of citizenship.

Thais are not trusted with self-quarantine, so they're placed in facility quarantine. Victorians are also placed in facility quarantine, while the rest of the country can self-isolate at home, as can citizens of many European countries, despite having ten or hundreds of times the number of cases as Thailand does. In these examples I am referring to residents of Singapore who hold citizenship of these countries as ordinary business travellers and tourists are not currently permitted to enter the country.

For entry to the EU zone, Thailand, Australia, Japan and a few others can enter without facility quarantine. However, Thais are required to self-isolate upon arrival to the UK. Some of these decisions are politically based, others seem rather random. Or they view developing countries as "flight risks" and thus require quarantines, whereas developed country citizens are seen as more likely to follow the rules.

Himeno, how does a government agent know who will self-isolate and who doesn't? In Victoria, there are countless examples of positive cases who refused to stay home when the army came door knocking.

Like I said, governments operate on a "one size fits all" mentality, the same with health care and vaccination. Individual rights be damned...Australia like the rest of the western world is rapidly moving towards a concept of "Communitarianism" which is basically collectivism where there rights of the many override those of the few, no matter how ridiculous and poorly defined a concept that is. Most Aussies have been programmed through the media and the education system to believe this is a good thing.

No matter what your personal beliefs are, individual freedoms are dying out fast. It's facility quarantine when arriving from overseas, no ifs or buts about it unless you can find some kind of loop hole exemption, but the vast majority of us aren't eligible for this or even now how to go about it. Even for domestic travellers, the loopholes are being closed fast and facility (hotel) quarantines are being demanded, depending on the state you are from and/or heading to.

I just checked in India and most places require home isolating coming from other states, and the back of their hand is stamped presumably with a date. As they do this at voting time to stop election fraud people are used to it. Interesting if we would wear it literally, cheaper than wrist trackers. The stamp wears off after a couple of weeks.

No-one has created this situation apart from the government. 

I just got back from a euro holiday. Travel exemptions to exit AU aren't difficult to attain and aren't stringently reviewed.

When you return, you can stay at your own property by applying for a covid safe plan through a state government application. It's a little bit pricey as you have to self fund security but much more comfortable for me as I can still go outside within my property.

Hi tcalise, lucky of you to be around Europe and back home now. I wish i could find a way to get away, any suggestions during these very strict enviro, from someone stuck in vic :(

I'd like to know more about that - which state were you in and is there a link I can follow for more information?

That doesn't sound right at all. Holidays aren't an acceptable reason to leave Aus, and with some rare exceptions, transiting countries on the way to/from Europe can be problematic. I think pretty much only the Middle East allows it. On the way back, it's 14 day facility quarantine. Saying you can apply to stay on your own property...I doubt that's allowed for most people given that they're now ramping up containment measures in Victoria and imposing more and more restrictions in the other states.

I would be really interested to know more too how to get an exemption. I eas planning to retire this year overseas and was due to depart Oz in May 2020 but flight was cancelled by airline and borders closed. I had a future planned permanently overseas. now I am marooned here .. so any tips to get an exemption most welcome 

you may be able to be trusted, but you seriously think everyone can be trusted to do the right thing?

Also difficult to see how a wrist tracker is entirely preventative, sure it'll provide evidence to press charges once said individual has left their home and may be that is sufficient deterrent for most but that's little help once they've spread the virus at the shops, friends house etc. Whereas the guarded hotels physically prevent movement.

No the tracker is on you to alert authorities if it's been taken off, or you've left the group locked location to... say 15-20 meters! Not the fact it'll follow you to the store, markets or work place :face palm emoji:

*geo locked location ie your home

I like I think it will beep which will remind you it is a very expensive and time consuming trip to the shops.

Jrfsp interstate travel is happening now so perhaps even WA will be open by then

Must have missed that memo about the state borders reopening

I'm in Canberra but Adelaide and Melbourne open Queensland last week. It does change a bit depending on the state pairs

It also depends on the direction you are travelling QLDs are allowed to leave.

Patrick, huh? They're CLOSING state borders now! The NT government is even suggesting it will remain closed for another 18 months! What are you smoking? Read news.com.au, it's all in there!

Freqflyer I have colleagues flying in from Brisbane next week ACT borders are not closed to anyone. But warnings about going to Victoria and NSW and self isolating from both. Murdoch news is hardly the most reliable.

Patrick, that's the ACT and they could close soon too. Just yesterday I was reading that ACT residents have a deadline to get themselves back home from Victoria.

I don't trust the mainstream any more than you do, but I do trust they are telling me the truth about border closures. In your alternative universe, you're basically saying all borders are open and we can just book a ticket and go where we want like normal. That is PURE nonsense. Borders are closed or heavily restricted, both in Australia and overseas. Accept it and stop living under a rock.

Freqflyer not sure I am living under a rock but no borders closed in the ACT it is just NSW and Qld doesn’t trust us not to let infected folk pass through. We have self isolating and that is that. When COVID nexts quietness down then we can go further. My point is Australia is like the rest of the world local lockdowns and local b

Patrick, Australia is currently undergo a VERY harsh second lockdown, particularly in Victoria. This contrasts with several Asian countries like Thailand, China, Taiwan and Japan where everything is open. Now of course that could change, I'm not ruling out another round of harsh measures in these countries or anywhere else in the world, but right now travel between Australian states is much more restricted than in many other countries. That's the point.

Whether or not the ACT is officially open or not is not the point. They're calling the NT's borders "closed" and that's the right terminology to use when you consider that a Sydney or Victorian resident is forced into 14 day hotel quarantine upon arrival at a cost of $3000. "Open" to me means unrestricted not "oh you can still come but have to self-isolate". That's called "restricted".

Freqflyer not sure where you get ‘harsh lockdown’ for Australia. Melbourne is closest to ‘harsh’: where I am there are no local restrictions at all probably except for loud crowded places and groups. No policing in sight and most people disrespectfully ignore Woolworths requests to wear masks. We disagree as I am in the ‘go early go hard’ camp. In the countries that do that Vietnam, China, NZ and many smaller towns and communities everywhere things are now very open except where there are small flare ups such as Da Nang in Vietnam, Auckland, Dalian, Aberdeen etc.  in Canada there are cross border restrictions particularly in the northern provinces.

You might try reading my response again, I implied that the harsh lockdown applies specifically to Melbourne and to a lesser extent the rest of the state. Elsewhere in the country it's not yet compulsory to wear a mask to enter Woolies, even if it's strongly recommended or staff are required to follow suit. This could change in the coming days/weeks. The restrictions in place depend on the state. Some are fairly open provided you're not attempting to come into that state (for instance, the NT imposes quarantines on Victorians and Sydneysiders, while South Australia is off-limits to Victorians altogether except for so-called "essential travel").

Vietnam is locking down again more and more, Hoi An is dead (it's in Da Nang's neighboring Quang Nam province), and bars/clubs have been shuttered in Saigon and Hanoi. Face masks are compulsory again nationwide (surprised they ever relaxed the rules when they've been consistently applied in Thailand, Singapore, the Philippines and other nearby countries since April) but I'm sure they won't be coming off again for a long, long time.

Cambodia, Thailand and Laos are pretty much completely open now even if face masks are required in some places, there are no interprovincial travel restrictions anymore. Europe is locking down again or requiring quarantines of arriving travellers coming from certain countries, in places.

So yeah, there are a myriad of rules but it's not looking good overall. Melbourne's lockdown is the harshest of any western country though, and significantly harsher than anything Thailand, Laos, Cambodia or Myanmar experienced even during the darkest days back in April and May.

Freqflyer colleague in Kolkata where things are not good is in full time curfew except from 9am to 1 pm for shopping etc. not as bad as Europe at its worst but not good.

Patrick, wow. That's crazy! I didn't realise that parts of India were still in such a strict lockdown mode. I remember Bihar was being put in a second lockdown a few weeks back, but didn't know Kolkata is also under such conditions. In that case I stand corrected. Melbourne isn't as bad, but I have seen a few headlines where it was said to be the strictest lockdown of any developed country.

Patrick, sorry for what you might have interpreted as my sweeping generalisation. Perhaps I should have phrased it better by saying "some states/cities have gone into full scale harsh lockdowns" by which I meant Melbourne and to a lesser extent the rest of Victoria in particular, with NSW on the verge of possibly joining Victorian ranks.

The rules are constantly changing so it's hard to keep tabs on the latest developments, whether in Australia or other parts of the world. I understand you're in Canberra and it's good to hear you aren't under a harsh lockdown...yet. I say yet because with all the crap that has been going on, you can never rule anything out. Back in May we were all being told that all restrictions, including border closures would cease by early July. Yet it was around that time that Melbourne slowly started going back into lockdown, starting in certain postcodes and eventually ending up becoming the democratic world's harshest lockdown conditions (harsher than the 1st or 2nd wave lockdowns in Auckland) and even harsher than that of many so-called "autocratic" countries in Asia.

I just hope that we've seen the worst of this, and that applies to every city/state and country in the world.

jrfsp, state borders are CLOSING right now. NSW requires Victorians to go into hotel quarantine. The NT requires the same of Sydneysiders and Victorians.

Will you join me in making a human rights complaint to the UN? The right to leave a country is in the covenant on human rights. It's in nz and Canada's bill of rights. We are trapped here like prisoners told by the government when we can leave and when we can return. Enough with hotel quarantine it's completely unsustainable and as we've seen doesn't even work. Let's adopt Taiwanese model and get on with things. I'm so sick of this country freaking out about every single case. Sent from self isolation for the egregious offence of visiting Victoria.

Where do I sign.

I wouldn't waste your money. During a State of Emergency or State of Disaster (Vic), the Chief Medical Officers and Police Ministers are granted extraordinary powers. The UN would not want to be involved. It may be harsh but it is the law; Australia has no overarching Bill of Rights so, for better or worse, there is no fallback.

What is certain is that, absent a widely distributed and efficacious vaccine, widespread international travel is a long way off. This is not just because countries will maintain strict border controls including quarantine but that no insurance company will provide international travel insurance until they can quantify the risk.

I know there is legal authority but the international scrutiny and media attention would embarrass the Govt into acting. Most non Australians are shocked when you tell them you are legally unable to depart the country and then returning flights are also restricted in capacity followed by inhumane hotel quarantine you have to pay for. What do we have to show for it? Rampant community transmission!

You may think that but it appears the reverse is true. The tighter the state premiers lock down their states, the more their approval ratings go up. Likewise Ardern in NZ who won't do anything until the September election is out of the way. It appears voters are rewarding leaders for being overly conservative even if such an approach may be ultimately unsustainable.

The right wing in Australia has argued consistently against entrenching rights in law. Now we see the consequences.

Seriously? You have no idea what authoritarianism is.

Oliver, I fully agree, but other countries are basically closed too. To enter countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, China, Indonesia and Thailand requires tons of hoops to jump through and will ultimately result in a 14-day quarantine upon arrival that you foot the bill for (except if you're a citizen).

I find it hilarious people are talking about international travel right now when you basically can't go anywhere. I am a dual citizen so while I could head to Europe without quarantine (for now; unless they decide to close up shop again later). I may be randomly selected for a PCR test which I don't want and once I'm in Europe I won't be able to get back to Asia or Australia, at least not without applying for a Certificate of Entry (for the former), having insurance and going through alternative state quarantine (or hotel quarantine in the case of Australia) for many months.

That's why I'm staying where I am and don't anticipate unrestricted travel to become possible again for about another year. It is what it is. Until the entire world goes back to normal there's no point in moaning or complaining otherwise...the world is in a state of flux and us "little people" won't be able to change anything.

Hewnix, who are these "non-Australians" (foreigners) who are shocked by what's going on in Australia? I don't think they're Asian, because Asian countries are applying similar restrictions and most locals in those countries seem to be pretty OK with it. The one difference is that I am not aware of any Asian country restricting it's citizens from travelling abroad, but at the same time, they correctly warn of stringent travel restrictions. You can't just book a ticket and get on a plane anymore. Firstly, it depends on where you're going and why. If you're a citizen of a country, you have the right to go home although some countries are making it difficult for their citizens to return home despite it being a human rights violation. If you're a non-citizen (i.e. foreigner...nothing wrong with using that word btw) you have no automatic right of entry.

About the only region of the world allowing some non-citizens in is Europe. Everywhere else there are restrictions - for instance Thailand is allowing foreigners in, but only those of certain categories (work permit holders, family members/parents/children of Thai citizens, permanent residents, migrant workers, film crew, elite visa holders, medical tourists/some types of business travellers). Ordinary travellers are not permitted entry at this point and all entrants, whether they hold Thai or foreign nationality, need to undergo a certain procedure before being permitted to get on a plane. After arrival, everyone goes into quarantine, even diplomats (the law was changed last month).

Other countries are similar - Vietnam for instance. However, Vietnam is not currently allowing family members of citizens in, nor is it allowing all work permit holders. Only "highly skilled" persons, which basically means factory owners, engineers and the like, but not English teachers or marketing managers.

In short, the current restrictions on global travel are probably not going to shock anyone anymore...because we've been experiencing them for almost 5 months now with no end in sight. In fact, restrictions are actually becoming STRICTER in Australia, New Zealand, the USA, Canada, Malaysia, the Maldives, Vietnam and many other countries. Case in point - masks are now required in Victoria, strongly urged in NSW, required in Auckland, parts of Canada, the USA, Malaysia, the Maldives, Vietnam and other restrictions are coming into force that weren't being imposed in the early days such as in April or May.

What do you reckon?

Ahhhh nope and ahhhhh NOPE!!!’ 

Random and you and stuck. I left my room twice for 15 mins walks on parking structure next door. No fresh air ... certainly not 3K worth even remotely! And meals..... forgetaboutit. 

Facing it again in October as I need to return for a heart operation AND check on my 95 year old mum. Currently I’m in Colorado where I seem almost free in comparison. 

Margiemc, well you found yourself a nice place to be while in the US. Colorado looks beautiful. Sydney quarantine must seem the pits by comparison, assuming its Sydney you are returning to.

Actually no Melbourne. And I already did the quarantine back in May but our hotel was very secure at the Novotel South Wharf. 

We couldn’t even poke our heads out of our rooms. 

I had an incredibly small hotel room. Admittedly it was comfortable but it was very small and I knew what I was getting into and it was still extremely tough.

This is extremely disappointing behaviour from all the state and federal governments to continue to impose such restrictions.

Reality is rest of the world is getting on with life and learning how to live with the virus. The fact that someone returning from somewhere such as New Zealand or Taiwan has to hotel quarantine for 14 days is not based on any epidemiological fact.

The island prison approach is not based on health or economics, but done to win votes from brainwashed sheeple.

KW72 Finland has just announced compulsory quarantine backed by fines and goal for non compliance.

Patrick, exactly. We have plenty of people who think that Europe is getting back to normal and this is all over, but that's simply not true. Until the entire world is back to normal, one can assume that we're going to be alternating between a series of lockdowns and re-openings. Meanwhile, some countries, Finland being a case in point, are only now at this late stage imposing strict measures like quarantines. I thought that mask mandates were off the cards for Australia and New Zealand, but look at Victoria now, NSW probably coming soon and Auckland has already announced a mandate of some sort too.

Can you point to a single country that has worked out an effective strategy not involving strict border controls? Everywhere that people decided to get on with life there has been an upturn in the number of cases.

It depends how you measure "an effective strategy".  

Taiwan and Thailand and New Zealand have effective strategies - better than Australia's, if infections and deaths are the measure - and neither involve preventing their own citizens from leaving as they so choose.

If the effective strategy is measured by GDP in 2020, the jury is still out. 

If the effective strategy is measured by happiness of the population, I'm guessing it varies pretty widely, especially in Victoria.

If effective strategy is measured by infringement on civil rights, Australia is doing pretty poorly.  

If effective strategy is measured by following the undisputed science and enforcing masks and closing bars and restaurants before community transmission gets out of hand, Australia has done pretty poorly as well.

If effective strategy is measured by testing per capita, the USA and Australia are doing very well.  If it is measured by community transmission rates, Australia was doing well, and isn't any more.

I could go on....

A really good point TDAG, we have all had time to digest the depth of the problem so some positive leadership is in order. Harrassing people in a pannicked state is getting ugly and tiresome.

Quite, however this negative rhetoric from the government is not helping anyone. The rest of the world seems to be slowly moving forward, yes they are encountering a few bumps along the way but its forward non the less and people seem to be looking more positive, whilst its all doom and gloom here.

TDAG not sure where you are referring to is all positive. The US is in a complete funk while the UK and Europe is all over the place with travel restrictions and local lockdowns. Australia and NZ are doing very well except for Victoria and some NSW nervousness. We are making do without international travel for the moment until testing gets better to bring down the quarantine period to a few days at most. At the moment two tests are required due to the high rate of false negatives.

I'm not referring to the situation, I am referring to people. We need positive messaging not more messages saying that we are continuing in lock downs etc.

Patrickk, Ive been in the US since March and where I am things are pretty good and yes they are creeping forward as TDAG said. In Texas they arent fining people for breaking the covid rules, just encouraging them to follow along. In Australia they are seriously harsh and its all negative rhetoric from the media and politicians. 

My daughters husband is a police officer in NSW and the things he has had to do to enforce covid "rules" makes it sound like Nazi Germany. I dont think its Austrlians that are the problem, its the harsh leadership.  What happens if outbreaks are still popping up 12 months from now, lock down, lock down, lock down. No wonder Qantas has left town and moth balled their planes.

Brett the police are tough because after many weeks of warnings pubs and clubs are breaking the rules. They still haven’t closed any pubs yet which is being very generous. Just before the current uptick I walked up George st in Sydney and down the finance end the bars were packed nobody was seated despite the rules and of course no policing there either. Physical distancing completely absent. Where I am in Canberra it is fairly relaxed no obvious policing but I suspect later at night there may be more checking. The whole thing does vary a lot across the country but I do agree with Jacinta Ardern to go early and go hard, and go for elimination that way if it pops up it can be squashed. Many states in the US seem do not even be going for suppression but a form of light management. I think the ACT government and WA would go early and go hard if needed, but the federal government seems to be dead against it.

Brett, you're lucky to be in Texas, because in other states they're going real gestapo now too, especially New York, which is imposing quarantines for travellers arriving from certain states and setting up checkpoints. Texas has always been one of the more conservative states that places a high value on freedom and liberty. I lived there for 2 years and was hoping to visit again later this year, until the virus hit. I'm now looking at tentatively planning a trip sometime in Q2 of next year, pending the easing of global border restrictions.

TheFreqFkyer, yes I agree about being one of the lucky ones. I would really struggle with some of the government rulings back in Aus. Only allowed to have regulated numbers of visitors in your home, being questioned on the street by the police as to why you are out of your home and not hiding in lock down, curfews and police blockiing highways and fining people heavily !! I watch the Australian news here and it appears each states leaders are trying to outdo each other in being the toughest. On the other hand Im pretty impressed with what I see here, people wearing masks, hand sanitiser in every shop and restaurant, business owners regularly cleaning door handles and eftpos machines. Things seem to be trending in the right direction with these measures and no one is getting fined !! Except some businesses that want to be renegades. Some states here have gone a bit hard on it but in general I think life is pretty chilled. True words about Texas, I find Australia has become so politically correct  now it grinds me. I come here and its laid back by comparison and people are respectful unless its about politics. Things will get crazy soon though with the election coming up, maybe my peace will shattered haha.

Brett I am in Australia and have not come across most of the things you refer to. You are extrapolating Melbourne to the rest of the country. True I’m limited to 10 in the house but I would never have that many anyway. Where I am people are not being fined and renegade businesses sometimes get let off with a warning. As you say most people are chilled and with no cases in months that is why. It is not uncommon for the police in many states of the US to ask people why they are out and about sometimes to tragic consequences. The only thing states compete on being tough about in Australia is borders. Up to a point I agree, as it is travellers that bring the infections in. In most states of Australia they would prefer new infections per day of well under 5 as more than that it is hard to test track and isolate. There are hand sanitisers in most places some wear masks in shops (I do) but with zero cases many wonder why need to but if there were a few cases out there they would. New Zealand worries with 10 new cases in a day the US is tolerant of 10,000 in a day. Tolerance levels is what it is about and health system capacity.

Patrickk, things are very fluid all over the world and different restrictions constantly changing. Last I heard I think it was an 8pm curfew in Melbourne and no one allowed out to play until morning. I find this concept absurd and the premier needs a new job. You speak of Canberra like its handling things well and it sounds good there, you are fortunate as I am. 

Brett curfews to keep people in are not that uncommon (or 'absurd'). As  mentioned Kolkata curfew is from 1.00pm to 7.00am. Across Europe bars and restaurants are being closed from anytime from 8 to midnight. If stopping people 'playing' as you suggest then that is the way to do it. We now know more about how it is spread an increasingly restaurants and bars are being named. As we know from contact tracing if people are drunk in doors they shout a lot and don't know how to keep apart (more droplets in the air).  I think as a rule contact tracing is less in the US mainly because there are too many cases to trace, and so the evidence is not there..

Melbourne IS Australia - I'm amazed at how Australians in other states seem to not even care about what is happening to people in Melbourne and to be joining in with the individual state point scoring of the premiers as if its a game of cricket. We all have threats of  being locked up held over all of our heads from these despicable rogue premiers. The rest of the world IS learning to deal with it in not such a heavy handed or hysterical way. yes a bit chaotic and haphazard in places but nowhere else is imprisoning its citizens or permanent residents, many of whom have part of their lives overseas. Commentators from Europe and some other parts of the world are looking on incredulously as Australia locks up its own citizens and blames them for their situation. Even more incredulously there is no end in sight and so many in the population seem to be calling out to be even more restricted in some sort of deluded quest for 100% safety.  

There has not been an overwhelmed health system in US since NYC. Even that was not the entire system.

Aus govt woefully under resourced its hospital systems in the face of booming population and now they're trying to hide it.

Florida, Texas and California come to mind. Almost impossible to get a test.

That is incorrect - testing is available to everyone in those three states, and not hard to obtain; the hold-up is with the results, which can take days or even weeks.

To that end, any test that isn't returned in 24 hours is useless if the person tested hasn't been in isolation awaiting the results. That is a problem in Australia, too.

Nyjoe see the ABC report by Katherine Diss on Texas on hospital system capacity. As one who has had a test self isolating for two days while the test results come back is easy waiting two weeks is very hard and if you have it you would know by then so what's the point, and probably not self isolated for that long hence my point on testing. As a report from someone in the US who had the test they could get it easily for a fee then wait two weeks which as you say is useless. The free tests are much harder and they're for those who need it the most. I probably disagree with you that a 48 hour turnaround is also useless.

I think Diss is therefore incorrect about testing; hospital capacity has long been a problem in Texas and elsewhere, but free testing (and it should be free in ALL cases) is pretty prevalent. Keep in mind that the USA has, overall, the same testing rate per capita that Australia has.

Having said that, no one would suggest that the USA is doing a good job.

Fair point on the 48 hour turnaround, assuming that the person tested goes from test to isolation until the results are returned. My friend in upstate New York, on the other hand, was tested and given the (negative) results within 3 hours. But even he interacted with four people in the space of that three hours.

At least they were all wearing masks.

Not true, that is to do with insurance and money

Nope, free for everyone.  People are sometimes illegally or mistakenly billed, but all coronavirus tests are free.

nyjoe things may have changed in the  last month but see ABC News story "I covered America's coronavirus outbreak for months. Then I caught the disease"  By North America correspondent Kathryn Diss in Washington DC Posted ThuThursday 16 JulJuly 2020 at 5:02am. She was in DC and paid $200 up front and waited four days

She shouldn't have paid by July 16; free testing has been widely available in DC since April.  

Local lockdowns and restrictions are not a sign of being all over the place, they're a sign we are finding ways to live with the virus and move forward from shutting down whole countries. It's got to be about targeting where there are problems and acting quickly. The alternative is blanket restrictions for an indefinite period while we sit it out waiting for a vaccine that may or may not work, or think we will eradicate the virus entirely. It isn't going to happen like that.

The fact some people have no respect for the rules when they are in place is a different matter.

Stevo Australia is not in a complete lock down. I'm in Canberra and ca go and do much as I like as long as it is not in crowded places. This is much the same for the rest of Australia except for Melbourne one of those local lockdowns you refer to.

Patrick, that's true but there are travel restrictions between states once again and things are teetering on the brink in NSW, especially Sydney at the moment.

Eventually when the borders open in WA... cases will pop up. It's inevitable. How long do you think Australian's let alone New Zealanders, won't be able to travel abroad?

NZ can travel outbound. They have 5000 people leaving a week.

Wonder where NZers are going when the whole world is still closed. Only Europe is kind of open to foreign tourists (except Americans and Chinese), but Kiwis aren't allowed to enter Australia, most Asian countries (unless they're returning residents and meet one of the exceptions to the travel bans) or most other parts of the world. 5000 therefore seems like an incredibly high number...I presume most of those leaving are not Kiwis but foreigners stuck in Kiwiland returning to their home countries.

What is the 16 hour or so test, maybe even less that they are carrying out at HK airport? Will Ripley from CNNi did a story on his experience when he returned to HK, he stayed in what looked like a gymnasium, people separated at distance but had to wait out many hours for the results. Then was able to leave or fly on... Couldn't we have this at Australian airports, hence able to go home. I'd be up for that!

They were at Asia World Expo next to the airport. If you arrive in the morning you wait there about 12h for your COVID test results. For evening arrivals you get sent for one night in the Regal Oriental hotel until the next day when your COVID test result is known. Then, if from a low risk country ( like Oz) you can home quarantine monitored by a locked wrist band and app. If you leave your house. $A5000 fine, two weeks in quarantine camp AND then 3 months jail. 

High risk countries pax have a choice. Two weeks self paid hotel quarantine or Govt. provided quarantine camp (demountables outside the city). 

HK residents are free to come and go providing these rules are followed. Unlike Australia, the island prison where you need a Soviet style exit visa 

Correct as well as the issue that the test does not identify those who are still incubating the virus. For example, if you flew MEL-HKG and were infected on the flight, you would return a negative test on landing in HKG but become highly infectious about 3-4 days later.

Your point only supports the argument that quarantine and cutting ourselves off from the world is wholly unsustainable

Hewnix it depends for how long. So far it seems six months for sure and possibly a year is fine. Note the only trade effect is tourism (which I know is big but not insurmountable as it goes both ways) and I suspect international students will be sorted for next year with 2 weeks quarantine

Actually the point is that cutting ourselves off from the world is the only measure to prevent virus spread. Glad you understood that point.

Citrail which upcoming election he was elected last year.

Year before actually but it is still 2 years until next Vic poll. Probably unlikely he will stay around until then anyway.

Co that you could add Gladys and Sco-mo (Peter Dutton and the ag minister) for the ruby princess debacle as well as Sco-Mo for the Covid in nursing home debacle. The blame heads in many directions but in the end to overwhelmed public servants.

Let's keep the ad hominem politics out of this. Remember that quarantine is a federal responsibility.

Eminere there have been a few on this forum regular traveller for one.

P the ACT has had a couple of border closures on early on for a month or so and now a non policed one with advice not to travel to Sydney or Melbourne and to self isolate on return. If there is any positive cases of which there haven't been for a month or more the whole thing will be much tighter.

Away01 the short answer is that it is very easy to police an airport but not a local area in the same way. The absconding rate is much the same but in Victoria with increased checking and fines it is starting to come down NSW may do the same.

Interested to know what approach you were taking regarding health insurance.  As a sponsored visa holder you would not be covered by Medicare so are you still able to obtain insurance?  My understanding is that most companies have canceled coverage.

Some sponsored visa holders receive reciprocal medicare so Insurance is not mandatory for them. 

Because the ban is on foreigners in general, not merely tourists. Unless you have permanent residency you're not really a "resident" anyway, at best you can be described as a "temporary resident".

I note they seemed to have skipped the stage 3 testing bit. There are a few that have got as far as they have but can’t be certified without stage 3 testing, that is very large numbers in a high prevalence environment. Brazil is a favourite for that.

Russia has disclosed that it has approved the vaccine after testing on only 76 people.  On this basis, it is unlikely to get global approval given most vaccines require successful double-blind Level 3 testing on at least 30,000 people.

Yeah, it won't even get past the front door of a credible health care agency (FDA, EMA, SwissMedic, TGA etc) with those levels of testing.

76 is pretty much phase 1 levels of testing. It's basically pharmacokinetic (what the body does to a drug) and pharmacodynamic (how the drug works and it's mechanism of action) testing. Phase 2 and 3 are efficacy testing.

With 76 people, they'll barely know if it is well tolerated by a human body, let alone how effective it is at stimulating antibodies and how long that protection lasts.

reeves, no vaccine has ever been through a double blind study. Most of the time, a vaccine is compared to another one with the antigen component taken out, not a true placebo. Most vaccines are only tested for a short time measured in terms of weeks, never months or years. This means that adverse reactions that show up months or years later are never attributed to the vaccine, when independent studies have proven there is a connection.

Freq the Oxford vaccine (according to National Geographic) is with 50,000 (over many countries and importantly 5,000 in Brazil) over six months until Nov) the placebo is 'quadrivalent meningitis ACWY vaccine' as the control, so it is not completely useless against something (just not COVID); the Queensland UNI one (according to the ABC) is with a bit over a hundred but over a 12 month period (not sure what the control is) . So the process does vary a bit. The advance production of billions of doses is a big gamble (not to mention a moral hazard: to come up with a positive answer), and also as you say adverse reactions can emerge later on.

You must be joking, TheFreqFlyer, vaccines are routinely trialed in double blinds. A few double blinds I have been involved with: a heat activated Hep B vaccine in the 1980s; SPf66 malaria vaccine double blind trial in Thailand 1994-96; several double blind trials of influenza vaccines in the mid 1990s; gp350 Epstein-Barr virus vaccine mid-2000s; ICP10PK vaccine for KSV-2 (venereal warts) 2000-2001. I could go on. Geeze.

Mikana, you need to do more research than what the biased Murdoch news is telling you. Patrick gave you a clue, which is exactly what I said - vaccines are normally tested against one another or against the same formulation as the new vaccine but without the antigen component. There are no true placebos, such as a saline shot.

I've never read a Murdoch publication in my life and I certainly don't take any of my news about science form the mass media. I was the MD of a major international health organization based in DC and Frankfurt for 10 years. I read the science itself, you condescending twerp. Placebo is frequently used in vaccine trials but when it is used, at trial end, the trial is unblinded and the subjects who received placebo are given the vaccine, unless of course, there have been statistically significant incidents among the group given the vaccine.

Can we ease up on name calling controls  don’t have to be placebos. You have to tell people what they are getting, so better to say one vaccine or another. It will make them feel it’s not a waste of time. Having sat on ethics committees wasting people’s time is an issue so not only giving them the being tested later but another one that might be useful makes perfect sense.

Thanks Mikana and for freqflyer: from the article mikana cites ‘placebo-controlled trial addresses the locally relevant question regarding the extent to which the new vaccine is better than nothing, and participants in the placebo arm of the trial are not deprived of the clinical benefits of an existing efficacious vaccine’ . That is very useful for me in other ways, and that is why the Oxford study is giving another vaccine as a control. Now no more name calling please.

You are cherry-picking. The situation you picked out, is not applicable to testing of a candidate vaccine for SARS-Cov-2 since there exists no efficacious vaccine. My argument was with the blindingly ignorant assertion that vaccines are never double blind trialed using placebo, when I know from my own professional life that that is not at all the case. My inappropriate name-calling was a response to a message suggesting I get my information from the Murdoch press and didn't know what I was talking about, when in fact, on this matter, I do know what I'm talking about. Did I now I would not speak, since I have built my reputation on never uttering on matters upon which I have no expertise. A good rule IMHO.

Mikana I hope I’m not the one cherry-picking I’m agreeing with you. There is ethical issues of saline placebos as the article states. The efficacious vaccine is for something else so not a waste of their time nor an ethical conundrum.

Yes, so we can't do double blind trialing with placebo of a new vaccine when there is an existing vaccine that works, well, we can, if we get informed consent and then administer the existing vaccine at trial end.

Mikana yes but if it takes two years and 50,000 people much easier to get them and ethics committees onside by saying that we’re not wasting your time as half of you will get a vaccine that works against meningococcal or some such, and the other half a vaccine we hope works albeit against a different ailment. That is what the Oxford people are doing. Not sure what the control for the Queensland trial is but for so few they probably would be happy with a saline placebo as the control.

The meningococcal vaccine used in the Oxford trial was blind, I think. The subjects did not know if they got it or not. It was used because the team calculated that subjects receiving the SARS CoV 2 candidate would have a distinct response to it, e.g, pain, fever, and so a placebo which produces no reaction would have unblinded the trial. I am sure the subjects would have been told they might get the meningococcal vaccine but I'd have to check the full protocol document to know if the dosing was designed as a preventative and all subjects got it in the end. 

Mikana I am sure the 50,000 people and ethics people would love to be told we will give you/them a shot of something that may make you feel crook, but not enough to be of any use. Some how I doubt it, at least that they should say that (which they should if they followed protocols) but then you never know as I’m sure the Russian trial or some other trials using military personnel aren’t into such niceties.

Of course the meningococcal vaccine was given in a vaccination dose, but it was given whether people had already had it or not, since it was there only to keep the trial blind. This from the trial protocol: Volunteers enrolled into the control groups will receive 1 doses of MenACWY, a licensed vaccine that has been administered to teenagers in the UK routine schedule since 2015 and is used as a travel vaccine for high risk areas. The majority of participants in this study will not have had this vaccine previously, and therefore will gain the benefit of protection against group A, C, W and Y meningococcus. Those participants who have previously had MenACWY vaccines will have their immunity against these organisms boosted. 

Russian = Credible. Haha. They have rushed it through to gain media attention for Putin so his citizens will think he is amazing.

It's easy to mock the Russians but they still have some of the best scientists in the world, and they are not much constrained by the ethical and reporting requirements which apply in other industrialized societies. My own view is that any mass immunization with a new SARS CoV 2 vaccine in Russia now is a massive stage 3 vaccine candidate trial.

This is something I'm for. It's becoming a bit ridiculous when this can't be done or even thought of! 

Matt there are technical issues on reliability and believe me they would have thought of it.

TZ I think that will happen when there is a reliable test that doesn’t require a second test a couple of days later.

TZB they don’t test arrival at the airport but on day 3 and 12 of quarantine which is probably better. They don’t test departures for very obvious reasons. The tests come back in three days and the people are long gone.

This ^

First page of your Passport.

I believe if you check that note carefully, you'll find it says "requests", not "requires".  That's a small difference that makes a big one.

Mine says specifically "requests and requires", yes, REQUIRES the bearer to pass freely without let or hinderance.

This is a futile line of argument:

1. The statement in the passport addresses foreign authorities; it is not addressed to Australian officials.

2. The word 'requires' is not a command. In old-fashioned English it means noi more than 'need' or 'seek', as in 'Do you require any assistance, sir?'

You'll get nowhere claiming that the wording of the passport gives you any rights at all.

I'm just having a bit of fun. Oh, it's also written in my British passport, the exact same words, so in that case, I wonder if it IS written to Australian authorities?

So, what do the words adorning the entire inside cover of my passport(s) actually mean then and why is it written there? One is on a very slippery slope when starting to choose what to accept and what to reject in an official, government document which is issued, as the statement clearly states, "In the name of Her Majesty". Hmmm...

I think that the bold statement has SOME meaning. 

The expression is a relic. Remember when British pound notes had the monarch saying 'I promise to pay the bearer on demand...'? That didn't mean anything, either.

Haha, I was remembering that exact phrase when I wrote the above.

Theoretically, while under the gold standard, it was possible to present at the Bank of England and request gold in the value of the note, and I actually knew someone who actually did that and did receive gold, eventually, (it took months) but that phrase is gone from all banknotes now as all currency is fiat currency. Oops, we need to avoid going off-topic or Chris will send us to the nether-regions with or without a passport.

'monarch saying 'I promise to pay the bearer on demand...'?'

They still do.

mine says 'requests' so it change from time to time.

Rnickey, the entire world pretty much remains closed or at least restricted. I hear what you're saying, but your pleas would be better addressed to globalist institutions like the UN, who are keeping the world closed, rather than the Australian government, which is only following orders.

Yes I agree with the sports celeb un-restrictions. Australia’s blind adulation to its sports ‘stars’ is pathetic and misplaced. They continually disappoint and misbehave and You think that in a covid context can be trusted??? Yeah no don’t think so!! But that’s just another discrepancy in this appalling and corrupt Govt’s thinking.  Those who choose to leave do so at their risk - we should be screaming at the gate to be let out. Joyce is also playing politics lobbying for govt funding! 

Hope you're right, and that he has to share a cell with Matthew Johnson ( = Karma ).

Easy on there Tiger, stop picking on poor olde Uncle Rupert (or Jerry will have a piece of you!).  

1% of arrivals into nsw each week have the virus. They like to publish the hotel quarantine virus number so people think everyone is infected who arrives. 

Jc 1% of a lot us still enough to cause chaos.

Patrick,

That really wasn’t my point, my point is the general public are lead to believe everyone is infectious who comes in from overseas. The government and media tend to shy away from the full picture.

The other point is the flights will never stop coming in  and we currently have a cap to control the numbers in quarantine. This is the control.

The outbound travel ban serves no purpose when you have a cap on numbers coming in per week. 

The number for nsw will always be around 2450 a week unless they change the cap.