Qantas offers many options to fly to Helsinki with code-share flights via Finnair. I did note an option to route via Singapore on QF3875, leaving late at night for the 12hr trek to Helsinki - Its a brand new A350-900 - I'd personally choose that option. It's not the cheapest option (I only checked on Economy fares) but given the sector times - in my opinion, it represents very good value.
Perhaps I can buy QF ticket on such route if I call them or select "multi-city" route. However they do not show it up in "generic" booking screen (I check it again! MEL-HEL-MEL on 9-16 FEB 10 variants was offered MEL-HEL all via LHR and 7 back only 1 via SIN), so people who do not know about such possibilities will not see this route and most likely will go to Finnair website (than shows abundat of variants) if they need to go to Helsinki. I personally will go to Finnair website regardless. So why QF not show QF-AY route on "generic" booking page? You may have as many theories as you wish, but IMHO it simply because they (voluntary!) do not like to fly via Asia and they listen to the master (EK) and rather sell few more tickets via DXB on EK metal (sure exclusively for QF benefits!) than via SIN/BKK/HKG on AY metal. You may see this as "cooperation" with AY, but I do not think so.
Serg,
I think you are being Trump-like in that you are defaulting to alternate truths...
Fact is, when I posted my response to you I had checked what the Qantas site offered for flights ex Brisbane to Helsinki on a +60d departure - and I found the options that I referenced.
You originally posted and I quote "I have to fly to Milan toward end of the year" - a reasonable person would assume "toward the end of the year" to mean Oct-Dec - yet in your rebuttal of my post you used a +14d fare check.
As it stands, any person who needs to book a complex trip to a non-major port in the UK or EMEA on a 14-d or less booking period should not expect low cost or bargain fares from any of the majors.
.....Let's take a look at the matter from a practical point of view - what do you suggest Qantas should do?.....
Short answer - I do not know. Situation is awful for QF and I blaming our government with their craze about privatization and deregulation. Instead of opening our market to everyone and now having difficulties to compete with them purely because our living standards (and therefore cost of our labor) one of the highest in the world they should protect our market, our companies, our workforce and future of our kids. They should develop some mechanism that allow Australian-base carriers carry as least 50% of passengers to/from Australia instead of being proud of miserable 16% or so carried by QF especially considering that half of those 16% used EK metal.
And no, I cannot see it in the way you do. QF does not offer me "one hop to most Europeans cities" - indeed EK does. If EK would not fly to Australia at all (like AY for example) and all traffic to DXB was carried by QF, then yes, I would agree that this is good agreement for QF and then yes I would agree that it actually QF offers those mythical one hop. But in reality EK has by far more flight than QF and fly to cities (our cities!!!) where QF does not fly at all (Perth for example) plus serving our capital cities better (2 flights to MEL while 1 by QF). So as far as I can see this is EK who offering me "one hop" and indeed if I am happy to fly them "DXB-MXP" then I would buy ticket from them and will fly "MEL-DXB" with them also.
...You originally posted and I quote "I have to fly to Milan toward end of the year" - a reasonable person would assume "toward the end of the year" to mean Oct-Dec - yet in your rebuttal of my post you used a +14d fare check...
If such picking is ONLY your arguments then what we discussing here? All original quotes in the beginning of the thread was done by dummy booking MEL-MXP in the middle of November. Then discussion revolves about why QF love EK that much and do not use say AY when it can be used very effectively like flight MEL-HEL (Helsinki, not Milan!!!). This has NOTHING to do to original statement and to illustrate my POV I quoted dummy booking +14 days. If you see HUGE flaws here and believe that relationship QF-AY strictly seasonal then please have a look at dummy booking in the middle of November to be "fair" on points that has nothing in common.
Serg, just to clarify - as per the BITRE website for FY16 Qantas' ex-AU international market share was 16.2% of all operated seats. (The 15.9% stat relates to actual passengers carried). This does not include codeshares and relates to the operating airline only, so QF metal. Emirates operated some 3 million seats less in/out of AU for the same period.
Clearly, Jetstar/Qantas failed their customer service in this situation. I dont understand those who defend the airline. You're contributing to the culture of poor customer service in this country. I like Qantas and more than happy to inform them about their pitfalls. It will make them better and more competetive.
Serg, just to clarify - as per the BITRE website for FY16 Qantas' ex-AU international market share was 16.2% of all operated seats. (The 15.9% stat relates to actual passengers carried). This does not include codeshares and relates to the operating airline only, so QF metal. Emirates operated some 3 million seats less in/out of AU for the same period.
I do not care about the fact that EK does not do much traffic from Australia to USA. However I do care how much EK does vs QF from Australia to DXB (and consecutively to Europe) and obviously EK beats QF to the dust. Similarly I do not care how much traffic SQ doing from Australia to DXB, but indeed I like to compare QF to SQ on Australia-SIN routes. Frankly all such comparison far from being favorable for QF. And last, but not least. I am sure that all traffic to NZ counts and this is plainly ridiculous to me because IMHO it is regional traffic, though AJ will insist that it is international one because it makes numbers look better. Moreover I suspect that they count some JQ traffic and it is fine by me, but it not exactly QF.
New Zealand is an independent Commonwealth and fully recognized as such. By definition, that is international travel. Also, for the record EK also flies across the Tasman, and any EK stats I have previously quoted include them tagging their big birds across to AKL and CHC and back.
And please note that the numbers I have quoted are not from Qantas but are from official government publications from the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics, which is part of the Department of Regional Infrastructure and Development. Jetstar operates under a different AOC to Qantas and their numbers are reported by the BITRE separate to Qantas.
Here's a link, if you would like to have a look for yourself:
New Zealand is an independent Commonwealth and fully recognized as such....
Jesus Christ! And who EVER disputed this statement? I just fail to see how it is possible to compile "statistic" with mixture of 14hr+8hr flight on A380 to Europe and 3hr hop in B737 across Tasman. But I guess one can figure out average temperature of patients in hospital too and on basis that one hospital has lower average temperature conclude that it is better hospital. Though there is a catch - you may count too many corpses in morgue in hospital with "better" temperature and those corpses will be "compensated" by number of patients that close to death with abnormally high temperature. IMHO this is exactly what happens with Qantas statistics. I am not intend to pollute this forum anymore because it is clear that we will not agree. So lets agree to disagree and lets each of us keep own POV.
Have a good day.
PS===================
I have a look at your statistic and this is what I figured.
Shares for 2016 by major airports:
Adelaide: EK-25%, SQ-21%, MH-12%, QF – No Data
Brisbane: VA-21%, QF-17%, EK-14% (best guess because LAX
traffic)
Darwin: QF – No Data, rest shared among JetStars, Silk,
Indonesia, Malaysia and Philippines
Melbourne: QF-14%, JQ-13%, EK11%
Perth: SQ-14%, EK-11%, (many others), QF-2%
Sydney: QF-24%, EK-8% and lots of small percentage
And you call this statistic appealing? Two major cities
(Adelaide and Perth) solely relay on EK for Europe traffic and SQ for Asia one.
Why the heck then they should call Qantas “National Flag Carrier�
At the risk of this comment being sin binned I’m going to say it anyway.ÂÂ
Go and read AusBT’s community post guidelines - your comments over the last few days have been rude, mis-informed, belligerent, applying Donald Trump-like alternative truths, and in many cases seeking only to be argumentative, and patently non-constructive to many if not all AusBT contributors. ÂÂ
The final straw for me was your response to the factual information that AusBT member “Speak†posted re international traffic. Twice you attacked this user for simply posting official Government traffic data - you perversely turned data around for your own purposes.ÂÂ
For what its worth, I actually downloaded all 6 pages of this thread and reviewed it in detail - having re-read (what is now a 78 page Word document) - Not once - NOT ONCE have you agreed with or engaged in a comment with this community.ÂÂ
I don’t expect you to agree with my opinion or anyone else but when you attack and degrade EVERY response - enough...
The AusBT community guidelines are pretty clear about conduct so i’ve removed much of what I really want to say.ÂÂ
== Short answer - I do not know. Situation is awful for QF...
Great to see that at least we can agree on something, even though the point we agree on is rather sad.
Qantas is not in a position to walk upright on its own given the existing policy settings and competition (at least when it comes to operations to Continental Europe).
It seems to me that Qantas had to choose either one of the ME-3 carriers primarily due to lack of other/better options both in terms of partners and adequate financial resources and hardware.
== I cannot see it in the way you do. QF does not offer me "one hop to most Europeans cities" - indeed EK does. If EK would not fly to Australia at all (like AY for example) and all traffic to DXB was carried by QF, then yes, I would agree that this is good agreement for QF and then yes I would agree that it actually QF offers those mythical one hop. But in reality EK has by far more flight than QF and fly to cities (our cities!!!) where QF does not fly at all (Perth for example) plus serving our capital cities better (2 flights to MEL while 1 by QF).
I completely agree with the sentiment.
It would be really wonderful if Qantas itself operated a dozen flights a day to Dubai instead of offering Emirates codeshares.
Nonetheless the situation as it exists right now is that Qantas simply does not have the hardware or money to operate all these flights (regardless of whether Emirates/Qantas actually want to do that). Until recently Qantas was deep in red, with no money from the government or anywhere else coming to rescue it.
We can start a whole separate debate about whether Qantas should have been wiser with its aircraft purchases and planning. Well, there is actually a chance that we may end up in a violent agreement on that one ;)
Nonetheless, Emirates surrendering the Australian market to Qantas and donating it a dozen planes as a bonus is not something that is likely to occur, as wonderful as this idea may sound to you and I.
Emirates has plenty of money from its backers in Dubai, but they unfortunately don't operate a charity that hands out freshly minted aircrafts to respected and cherished partners, like Qantas.
== So as far as I can see this is EK who offering me "one hop" and indeed if I am happy to fly them "DXB-MXP" then I would buy ticket from them and will fly "MEL-DXB" with them also.
Yes, obviously anyone can buy a ticket directly from Emirates rather than from Qantas.
The only remaining factor here that Qantas is playing on is its frequent flyer points.
Australian public has an infatuation with these precious Qantas points - whether they are really as valuable is a whole other matter.
This seems to me as one possibly last trump card that keeps Qantas in play when it comes to Qantas/Emirates relationship.
I agree that all of this is very sad.
"Does Qantas really want me to fly with them?"
Sure, except they have no aircraft and no resources to fly you.
So if you pretty please put $9300 on the table, they will make sure Emirates accommodates you.
Even at the lowest fare bucket, in any class, QF is NEARLY ALWAYS more expensive, unless they are having a sale.
Serg,
You do understand supply and demand don't you?
Ultimately the airlines will allocate buckets of fares that can be sourced direct, via code-share, via multi-carrier on one PNR, via aggregators - that's how the business works...When buckets are exhausted, fares go up!
Sometimes Qantas flies where you want it to fly and you max out SC and QFFP - like I did on a trip from BNE/LAX/LAS/ORD/EWR/JFK/BNE.
Sometimes they don't. Last year I needed to get from LAX to PDX - no Qantas code-share option...tough
What I'd suggest you do is disconnect your wish to "support our flag carrier" from your desire to earn the most SC and points...I don't see how they can be mutually fulfilling...
Ultimately the airlines will allocate buckets of fares that can be sourced direct, via code-share, via multi-carrier on one PNR, via aggregators - that's how the business works...When buckets are exhausted, fares go up!
Sometimes Qantas flies where you want it to fly and you max out SC and QFFP - like I did on a trip from BNE/LAX/LAS/ORD/EWR/JFK/BNE.
Sometimes they don't. Last year I needed to get from LAX to PDX - no Qantas code-share option...tough
What I'd suggest you do is disconnect your wish to "support our flag carrier" from your desire to earn the most SC and points...I don't see how they can be mutually fulfilling...
I do not understand how supply and demand works in Qantas case. At all. I can buy CX tickets (lets forget about AY with 3 legs for a moment) and CX has FAR superior business product, transits via HKG with marvelous lounges, I still earning points and they charge much less. So only incentive remains is ability to upgrade to first (do not really care - CX business is good enough for me and upgradable ticket cost even more!) and earn SC - do not care much either because I do not fly that much. So no, I do not understand what is "supply and demand" in Qantas terminology. And yes, call me silly sausage, but I prefer to buy Australian if I can because I like to support our workers.
Serg - I agree with your sentiment on supporting the national carrier and Australian jobs. I do think that the CX product is very good too. So difficult to justify the extra expense.
markpk
markpk
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 29 Nov 2013
Total posts 459
Perhaps I can buy QF ticket on such route if I call them or select "multi-city" route. However they do not show it up in "generic" booking screen (I check it again! MEL-HEL-MEL on 9-16 FEB 10 variants was offered MEL-HEL all via LHR and 7 back only 1 via SIN), so people who do not know about such possibilities will not see this route and most likely will go to Finnair website (than shows abundat of variants) if they need to go to Helsinki. I personally will go to Finnair website regardless. So why QF not show QF-AY route on "generic" booking page? You may have as many theories as you wish, but IMHO it simply because they (voluntary!) do not like to fly via Asia and they listen to the master (EK) and rather sell few more tickets via DXB on EK metal (sure exclusively for QF benefits!) than via SIN/BKK/HKG on AY metal. You may see this as "cooperation" with AY, but I do not think so.
Serg
Serg
QFF
Member since 12 Apr 2013
Total posts 999
Short answer - I do not know. Situation is awful for QF and I blaming our government with their craze about privatization and deregulation. Instead of opening our market to everyone and now having difficulties to compete with them purely because our living standards (and therefore cost of our labor) one of the highest in the world they should protect our market, our companies, our workforce and future of our kids. They should develop some mechanism that allow Australian-base carriers carry as least 50% of passengers to/from Australia instead of being proud of miserable 16% or so carried by QF especially considering that half of those 16% used EK metal.
And no, I cannot see it in the way you do. QF does not offer me "one hop to most Europeans cities" - indeed EK does. If EK would not fly to Australia at all (like AY for example) and all traffic to DXB was carried by QF, then yes, I would agree that this is good agreement for QF and then yes I would agree that it actually QF offers those mythical one hop. But in reality EK has by far more flight than QF and fly to cities (our cities!!!) where QF does not fly at all (Perth for example) plus serving our capital cities better (2 flights to MEL while 1 by QF). So as far as I can see this is EK who offering me "one hop" and indeed if I am happy to fly them "DXB-MXP" then I would buy ticket from them and will fly "MEL-DXB" with them also.
Serg
Serg
QFF
Member since 12 Apr 2013
Total posts 999
If such picking is ONLY your arguments then what we discussing here?
All original quotes in the beginning of the thread was done by dummy booking MEL-MXP in the middle of November.
Then discussion revolves about why QF love EK that much and do not use say AY when it can be used very effectively like flight MEL-HEL (Helsinki, not Milan!!!). This has NOTHING to do to original statement and to illustrate my POV I quoted dummy booking +14 days. If you see HUGE flaws here and believe that relationship QF-AY strictly seasonal then please have a look at dummy booking in the middle of November to be "fair" on points that has nothing in common.
Speak
Speak
Member since 30 Dec 2014
Total posts 25
Serg, just to clarify - as per the BITRE website for FY16 Qantas' ex-AU international market share was 16.2% of all operated seats. (The 15.9% stat relates to actual passengers carried). This does not include codeshares and relates to the operating airline only, so QF metal. Emirates operated some 3 million seats less in/out of AU for the same period.
MikeZ
MikeZ
Member since 24 Jan 2017
Total posts 26
Clearly, Jetstar/Qantas failed their customer service in this situation. I dont understand those who defend the airline. You're contributing to the culture of poor customer service in this country. I like Qantas and more than happy to inform them about their pitfalls. It will make them better and more competetive.
Serg
Serg
QFF
Member since 12 Apr 2013
Total posts 999
I do not care about the fact that EK does not do much traffic from Australia to USA. However I do care how much EK does vs QF from Australia to DXB (and consecutively to Europe) and obviously EK beats QF to the dust.
Similarly I do not care how much traffic SQ doing from Australia to DXB, but indeed I like to compare QF to SQ on Australia-SIN routes.
Frankly all such comparison far from being favorable for QF.
And last, but not least. I am sure that all traffic to NZ counts and this is plainly ridiculous to me because IMHO it is regional traffic, though AJ will insist that it is international one because it makes numbers look better. Moreover I suspect that they count some JQ traffic and it is fine by me, but it not exactly QF.
Speak
Speak
Member since 30 Dec 2014
Total posts 25
Serg
Serg
QFF
Member since 12 Apr 2013
Total posts 999
New Zealand is an independent Commonwealth and fully recognized as such....
Jesus Christ! And who EVER disputed this statement? I just fail to see how it is possible to compile "statistic" with mixture of 14hr+8hr flight on A380 to Europe and 3hr hop in B737 across Tasman. But I guess one can figure out average temperature of patients in hospital too and on basis that one hospital has lower average temperature conclude that it is better hospital. Though there is a catch - you may count too many corpses in morgue in hospital with "better" temperature and those corpses will be "compensated" by number of patients that close to death with abnormally high temperature. IMHO this is exactly what happens with Qantas statistics.
I am not intend to pollute this forum anymore because it is clear that we will not agree. So lets agree to disagree and lets each of us keep own POV.
Have a good day.
PS===================
I have a look at your statistic and this is what I figured. Shares for 2016 by major airports:
Adelaide: EK-25%, SQ-21%, MH-12%, QF – No Data
Brisbane: VA-21%, QF-17%, EK-14% (best guess because LAX traffic)
Darwin: QF – No Data, rest shared among JetStars, Silk, Indonesia, Malaysia and Philippines
Melbourne: QF-14%, JQ-13%, EK11%
Perth: SQ-14%, EK-11%, (many others), QF-2%
Sydney: QF-24%, EK-8% and lots of small percentage
And you call this statistic appealing? Two major cities (Adelaide and Perth) solely relay on EK for Europe traffic and SQ for Asia one. Why the heck then they should call Qantas “National Flag Carrier�
markpk
markpk
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 29 Nov 2013
Total posts 459
Serg
At the risk of this comment being sin binned I’m going to say it anyway.ÂÂ
Go and read AusBT’s community post guidelines - your comments over the last few days have been rude, mis-informed, belligerent, applying Donald Trump-like alternative truths, and in many cases seeking only to be argumentative, and patently non-constructive to many if not all AusBT contributors. ÂÂ
dimi
dimi
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 13 Jul 2012
Total posts 154
The only remaining factor here that Qantas is playing on is its frequent flyer points.
Australian public has an infatuation with these precious Qantas points - whether they are really as valuable is a whole other matter.
This seems to me as one possibly last trump card that keeps Qantas in play when it comes to Qantas/Emirates relationship.
I agree that all of this is very sad.
"Does Qantas really want me to fly with them?"
Sure, except they have no aircraft and no resources to fly you.
So if you pretty please put $9300 on the table, they will make sure Emirates accommodates you.
Nice chatting to you, Serg.Joe
Joe
Member since 03 May 2013
Total posts 190
Even at the lowest fare bucket, in any class, QF is NEARLY ALWAYS more expensive, unless they are having a sale.
leeflyer
leeflyer
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 30 Jun 2017
Total posts 9
I do not understand how supply and demand works in Qantas case. At all. I can buy CX tickets (lets forget about AY with 3 legs for a moment) and CX has FAR superior business product, transits via HKG with marvelous lounges, I still earning points and they charge much less. So only incentive remains is ability to upgrade to first (do not really care - CX business is good enough for me and upgradable ticket cost even more!) and earn SC - do not care much either because I do not fly that much. So no, I do not understand what is "supply and demand" in Qantas terminology.
And yes, call me silly sausage, but I prefer to buy Australian if I can because I like to support our workers.
Serg - I agree with your sentiment on supporting the national carrier and Australian jobs. I do think that the CX product is very good too. So difficult to justify the extra expense.