Qantas Boeing 787-9 routes: Where will Qantas fly its new Dreamliners?
By David Flynn, August 26 2015
It’s a good two years until the first Qantas Boeing 787-9 makes its inaugural flight towards the tail end of 2017, but which routes will be graced by the Dreamliner?
Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has already name-checked a few possibilities as well as laying out some early criteria which will shape the airline’s Boeing 787-9 destinations, including “opening up new destinations around the globe.”
Even so, Joyce is keenly aware of the challenges in trying to see two years into the future through a cloudy crystal ball.
“The routes we have in mind today will probably be very different to the routes we end up having this aircraft on” says the Qantas chief, who cut his teeth in the local airline industry planning routes and schedules at Qantas and Ansett.
“The actual network the aircraft will end up operating will depend on what we think the market considerations will be at the time.”
Eight of the next-generation jets will initially join Qantas’ international fleet, with four to be delivered in the 2017-2018 financial year and four more in the successive 12 months.
Read more: Qantas to buy Boeing 787, first flights from 2017
That said, here’s what we know so far.
New long-range routes
Announcing Qantas’ Boeing 787 order, Joyce was quick to call out “long-range routes that we don’t fly today” as a prime example of Dreamliner flights.
“Markets like Melbourne to Dallas open up as an opportunity for us because the aircraft has the potential range to do that in both directions.”
Joyce sees plenty of appeal in mapping the Boeing 787 onto “routes that we want to fly over a hub and go directly into other destinations without having to fly through LA.”
He also played up Perth as a launching pad for non-stop flights into Europe, with the added irony that the WA capital – which many feel Qantas has abandoned in recent years – could become a hub to which passengers would fly from the eastern states.
Joyce added that “a seamless domestic to International transfer was essential for the hub operation and that will become a reality early in the next decade when Qantas’s domestic operations move to the international side of the airport” reports The West Australian.
Routes that can’t justify the jumbo
The first tranche of Dreamliners will replace five Boeing 747s, although this doesn’t mean they will all slot straight into the jumbo’s footprints.
Instead, Joyce sees the Boeing 787 as filling a gap on “routes that have low levels of traffic volumes that didn’t justify a 747.”
Each Qantas Boeing 787-9 will carry around 250 passengers in business class, premium economy and economy compared to an average 360 on the Red Roo’s Boeing 747s.
Read more: Qantas reveals Boeing 787 config
"Because the 787 is smaller than the jumbos it will gradually replace, it gives us the flexibility of having more aircraft without significantly changing our overall capacity,” he explains.
This is only enhanced by the Dreamliners boasting greater range than the Boeing 747s.
“It’s got better range, can operate to routes the 747 can’t with full payload, it is a fantastic replacement aircraft with less risk associated with trying to fill up a smaller aircraft,” Joyce said.
Routes which don’t operate daily, but should
Also playing into the Boeing 787s’ efficiencies – including reduced fuel burn and lower maintenance costs – are “routes that are less frequent which we want to get to daily,” Joyce says.
Once the first eight Dreamliners have been delivered, Qantas will have three more than the five jumbo jets being put out to pasture.
This could help boost some services which operate only a handful of days every week to the daily schedule which business travellers value.
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David Flynn is the Editor-in-Chief of Executive Traveller and a bit of a travel tragic with a weakness for good coffee, shopping and lychee martinis.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
10 Jun 2015
Total posts 46
I think they should get a 777-9x for the jumbo replacement, a 787-9 is way to small, but it should be used on Asian flights, not in the middle of America
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Sep 2012
Total posts 131
The A359LR being discussed on paper at least beats the 777x. And then the A330 to A350 transition for pilots would be a sinch. Migrate the 744 pilots used to the 1930's middle stick to the 789, and then keep the Airbus pilots used to their playstation controls on the A359LR
QFF
12 Apr 2013
Total posts 1559
IMHO Perth as transit point to Europe makes perfect sense, especially considering new business class on trans-continental flights. Come on, Qantas! Do Perth instead of Dubai!
Singapore Airlines - KrisFlyer
14 Jan 2014
Total posts 340
They will most likely keep both
QFF
12 Apr 2013
Total posts 1559
IMHO it does not make much sense to keep both. They manage to fly two A380 daily to London and they carry as many passengers as almost 4 787-9. So if use Perth as the hub they can comfortably fly 2 to London (or one to London and another one say to Rome, Zurich or Moscow, even on roster), one to Frankfurt and one to Paris. IMHO it is far better that be travel agent for Emirates. Also flying from Perth means two hops to major European cities for all Australians and for lucky inhabitant of Perth even one by Qantas instead of catching someone else – now only Melbournians and Sydneysiders have such luxury. I definitely will look forward to resume using QF to fly Europe because since they stop use Singapore I flying with someone else via Asia.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 May 2011
Total posts 233
I agree, they will need to keep both.
Perth to Europe can be done, but only just.
The 787 can really only reach Istanbul and Athens from Perth.
Even the 777-8x would struggle to reach Eastern Europe.
A350 on the other hand, if Airbus is to be believe, might just have the legs.
QFF
12 Apr 2013
Total posts 1559
Rome, Istanbul and Moscow are comfortably reachable, Zurich and Frankfurt are just reachable and London and Paris are just on other side of the edge of “reachability”. Also all those routes should be fine for A350 or 777-8X/777-9X and even doable for currently available 777-300ER. Come on, Qantas! Do Perth!
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
26 May 2014
Total posts 463
Comments have been made elsewhere about the lack of alternate airports for flights from Europe to Perth, therefore increasing the range requirement.
QFF
12 Apr 2013
Total posts 1559
There are definitely less alternative airports on MEL-LAX route
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 May 2011
Total posts 233
Alternatives matter towards to the end of the journey when you're low on fuel.
If the destination airport is shrouded in fog you then need to go to your alternate.
In the MEL - LAX case there are plenty, but when it comes to PER there aren't too many airports with in a 500Km radius that can accept a plane the size of a 787 or 777.
QFF
12 Apr 2013
Total posts 1559
Cool. How about LAX-BNE? Or even MEL-DXB? There are plenty lonely enough airports that can be approached from ocean.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 May 2011
Total posts 233
For MEL, we know that Avalon can accept large planes because after all, it has been the 747 service centre for the past 30 years or so. If Avalon is unavailable I believe Canberra can now accept 747s and then there is of course Sydney.
For BNE, I don't know if Archerfield is an alternate but Sydney is only 800Km away and is the obvious alternate.
Serveral airports around LAX can accept large planes.
An A380 had to land at Ontario airport recently: https://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-and-virgin-land-at-littleused-airport-due-to-la-fog-20150206-137rwr.html
This report shows the sort of thinking that goes into alternates: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1999/aair/aair199902817.aspx
12 Dec 2012
Total posts 1031
The CBR runways were upgraded to handle 747s when Clinton visited with Air Force 1.
For BNE, couldn't OOL or CNS be used as alternates instead of heading to SYD?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 May 2011
Total posts 233
Cairns can definitely take 747s. I've flown from Cairns to Hong Kong on Cathay on a 747 before and that was almost 20 years ago.
I don't know about OOL but maybe it can.
Cairns is further away than SYD so that is why SYD would be preferable than CRN.
12 Dec 2012
Total posts 1031
It would depend on when a flight needs to devert from BNE. For much of most flights to BNE, CNS would be closer then SYD.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 May 2011
Total posts 233
True, although it isn't always obvious.
It blew my mind when I saw that Sydney was further from Singapore than Melbourne and it was faster to fly to Melbourne than Sydney from Hong Kong.
Amazing world sometimes.
12 Feb 2014
Total posts 229
I really think Perth as a hub for Europe is a furphy. It goes against the whole strategy of using Dubai. Qantas gains and offers a massive network into Europe, Africa, ME and eastern seaboard of US using the EK hub. Little old Perth has no hope of offering anything extra. A hub from the eastern states into Africa and maybe India, yes.
What is really needed is a daily 787-9 to Dubai, to give WA/SA customers who want to fly QF metal the same advantages that everyone else gets. That would definitely fill and be complemented by a daily EK flight.
There is also an argument that the same leg could continue on to a European capital, especially Frankfurt, as part of the QF/EK network offering.
QFF
12 Apr 2013
Total posts 1559
This is the whole point that I like to make – with hub in Dubai Qantas offers NOTHING, just service to Emirates as travel agent and ticket reseller. I am not interested to buy Qantas ticket and fly Emirates – if I like Emirates, I can buy directly from them and it is usually even cheaper. With hub in Perth, smaller aircrafts and more Europe destinations Qantas may became company that really fly Europe.
Though I agree with your sentiments – it is unlikely to happen.
12 Dec 2012
Total posts 1031
The 787-9s can't do the western parts of Europe from Perth. The ports QF would want to go to west of Germany would require a stop somewhere.
20 Apr 2014
Total posts 93
seems pretty likely that these birds will go straight onto the routes of the aircraft they replace (namely the 747s) as opposed to immediately opening up new routes.
any new routes as joyce says will be subject to the network and market forces at the time.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
10 Apr 2013
Total posts 387
Hey one thing I've noticed on the shareholders supplementary slides it says that 1 B747 will be retired this year. Doesn't that mean the 787-9s will replace 4 B747s. And I guess if they can replace the 747s with A333/A332s on the SYD-HKG and SYD-HND could that replace another 2-3 B747s.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
10 Apr 2013
Total posts 387
The 1 B747 being retired this FY could because of the SYD-HKG change of aircraft to A330s
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
10 Apr 2013
Total posts 387
Or it could go to double daily as AJ said he was looking to deploy more Capacity in Asia specifically looking at Hong Kond with more A330s flying.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
10 Apr 2013
Total posts 387
So in the end it could be 2-3 B747 get replaced by the 787-9s through increased A330 international flying. Since the 8 newer A332s will be part time international it should help to achieve this.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
26 May 2014
Total posts 463
QF's A330-300s have about the same number of Y seats as the 747s, so the big difference is about half the J seats and no PE. With increasing capacity to Japan, it could be that most of the growth in pax is in Y.
12 Dec 2012
Total posts 1031
I'll book a 10 hour overnight flight in PE. I won't book the same flight in Y.
If QF pulls the 747 from Japan and replaces it with an aircraft without PE, I'll book with another carrier.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
26 Aug 2015
Total posts 5
Sydney-Johannesburg (14hrs) has to be a candidate for upgraded equipment. The 747 Business service is just not at world standards. It is far from value for money.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Sep 2012
Total posts 131
Isn't SYD to JNB ETOPS restricted? The 789 might have the legs, but does it have sufficient ETOPS?
31 Mar 2014
Total posts 397
I believe it has sufficient ETOPS, but hte problem is that CASA hasn't approved AU carriers for more than 180 ETOPS
But Qantas has two years to work on this issue before the 789 arrives
12 Dec 2012
Total posts 1031
The SYD-JNB/SCL routes require ETOPS 330. The 787 has the needed type certification from FAA and EASA.
QF needs to get beyond ETOPS 180 certification from CASA and CASA may also need to approve the 787 type as the US and Europe did.
20 Aug 2015
Total posts 3
The current destinations that make the most sense to me are daily Santiago, Johannesburg, San Francisco and maybe Vancouver. Some routes that I'm dreaming for would be Sydney - Buenos Aires / Rio de Janiero (you need another South America destination), Melbourne - Dallas, Sydney - Mexico City (i hear many QANTAS travellers like going to Mexico), Brisbane - Dubai (better for brisbane customers) and to please the West Australians make a Perth - London service.
24 Apr 2015
Total posts 128
Qantas's biggest problem is it too Sydney centric. No one wants to transit Sydney.
So maybe some of the 787 flights will orginate BNE, MEL & even CBR.
Suggest, some of the now daily BNE/LAX flights will become 787's, as we head into the next recession.
Also Qantas could do, BNE/YVR & MEL/YVR nonstop to compete with AC.
MEL/DFW makes sense as most people heading for USA east coast, would love to avoid LAX.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
29 Mar 2015
Total posts 94
so true! it is a dream of mine to be able to fly Australia - USA avoiding Sydney AND LAX. so Melbourne/Brisbane - DFW is great. Also PE on asian/Hawaii routes is imporant (for me!), so if the 787 can do all of that.....
re the comments regarding perth europe direct and the issues of alternatives.... what about Darwin europe direct??? - yes I live in Darwin, so self interest triumphs! but pleanty of alternates..... (SIN, KL, Denpasar?, etc)
24 Apr 2015
Total posts 128
maybe now Ontario airport around 46 miles east of LAX is not owned by LAX, the likes of Jetstar should look at flying there ?
Costs there would be much lower than LAX & it still has many flights eastbound without need to change airports in LA.
12 Dec 2012
Total posts 1031
The Australia-Canada air services agreement only allows for 2 ports in each country. Sydney+1 and Vancouver+1. The +1s are currently Melbourne and Toronto. AC is in the process of changing Melbourne to Brisbane.
In order to get a 3rd port, or more then 3000 seats/week for each side, the agreement needs to change.
QANTAS
21 Aug 2015
Total posts 2
The most important concept for QANTAS to grasp,now , is that there must be that POINT OF DIFFERENCE in economy seating for Long Haul Routes .
Nine abreast seating is just NOT ON for Long Haul Flights on B787 A/C.
26 Aug 2015
Total posts 1
Geoffrey, you are 100% correct.
24 Apr 2015
Total posts 128
no can't agree. Price is most important as we head into next recession(we had to have). Difference between 8 & 9 across is a maximum of 1.9 inches or 4.8cm in seat width, altho b careful, as not all measurments are the same, eg. r u looking at seat width at bum or shoulder ? & what about armrest width ?
PE could be 8 across 2-4-2 & Y could be 2-4-3.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
02 Jul 2011
Total posts 1374
Apart from the Japanese (and ANA is now going 9-across), no other airline (including Etihad, British Airways, United) have put 8-across in.
Just NOT going to happen - not going to put themselves in a position where Y fares are another 20% more than the competition
26 Aug 2015
Total posts 9
Hi David,
Firstly, I want to commend you on this fantastic website. Just letting you know, you've got a red spot on Dubai ? but haven't typed it in.....unless that could be Doha?
Cheers
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
I think you'll find that's actually a Qantas graphic.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Sep 2012
Total posts 131
It also has a red spot on Addis Ababa.. can't see the QF demand for there either.
I'd suggest the Qantas graphic is purely for example of range!
12 Dec 2012
Total posts 1031
"I'd suggest the Qantas graphic is purely for example of range! "
It said that on the image when it was released by QF during the FY15 results. It appears that the bottom of the image where that statement was has been cropped on the version here.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
25 Nov 2013
Total posts 9
Probably legacy of QF8723 DXB-ADD
24 Oct 2010
Total posts 2563
Graphic supplied by Qantas. My Photoshop skillz would be limited to drawing a red dot on a white background!
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
09 Feb 2015
Total posts 387
Please reintroduce Singapore to Europe flights, we don't like Dubai AJ.
Cathay Pacific - Asia Miles
01 Feb 2015
Total posts 111
I would love to see a SYD-PEK route and a double daily HKG!
24 Apr 2015
Total posts 128
CX have 4 x SYD/HKG daily. Hard to compete with that.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
19 Feb 2014
Total posts 439
The arrival of the 787-9s should coincide only around 18 months before the new airport link should open, allowing the seamless connectivity between the domestic and international terminals.
This should give enough time for the replacement of transcon A330s, followed by new Europe connections after.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
02 Jul 2011
Total posts 1374
Unless QF orders more than 8 787s there won't be many new routes.
Why.. The are replacing 5 350-seat 747s (total 1750) with 8 250-seat 787s (total 2000)... So more likely to be used on existing routes with frequency additions...
That said could see a daily 747 SYD-SFO becoming a daily 787 SYD-SFO and 4x-weekly MEL-SFO service for example, and maybe the same with a few other destinations
24 Apr 2015
Total posts 128
with recession coming, many routes won't be able to justify a 747-400 daily.
+ don't have to go daily on a thin route.
28 Nov 2012
Total posts 93
What recession?
24 Apr 2015
Total posts 128
the big recession, we have to have. Sydney 1st.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Sep 2012
Total posts 231
Gradually they will add more B789s to the fleet, but the main priority of the 8 B789 orders is to replace the unrefitted B744s, so they will be used for those routes only. I doubt they will utilise all 50 options, but they will take in 20-35 aircraft for international routes. The rest will probably be used for domestic routes.
28 Nov 2012
Total posts 93
Rather than going domestic to Perth and transitting, couldn't flights originate as international on the east coast and stopover in Perth on the way to Europe? Or what about India then on to mainland Europe? QF used to stopover in Bombay on the way to London from Melbourne/Sydney years ago (might even have been QF9) that would fill 2 markets.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
26 Aug 2015
Total posts 10
That plan sounds good to save changing DOM (T3/T4) to INT (T1) terminals on opposite sides of the airport via bus service. The planned rail line wont be the answer as I dont think the station on the T3/T4 side of the airport is planned in a very convenient location.
21 Aug 2015
Total posts 86
Its hard to take this too seriously. All PR. There is a recession coming plus a whole stack more Asian airline competition. $ aircraft is nothing, 8 might have some impact but QF will still be slogging along with very old noisy fuel guzzling 747s for years and huge limited application 380s.
They may get around to restructing thier Board or even changing the CEO. Its all good news now but the airline industry is all about up and down.
Qantas
13 Jun 2015
Total posts 139
Qantas could perhaps do a BNE-LAX-JFK route to replace B744s as their inauguration of the B789 jet.
12 Dec 2012
Total posts 1031
I'd think they would start with SYD-HKG. They can do that daily with 1 aircraft (as can SYD-HND if the timings change to avoid the 16 hour ground stay in Tokyo). BNE-LAX-JFK requires 2.
24 Apr 2015
Total posts 128
why would BNE/LAX/JFK require anymore aircraft than BNE/LAX/BNE now ?
Currently aircraft sits at LAX for around 17.5 hours.
12 Dec 2012
Total posts 1031
... Because BNE-LAX-BNE also requires 2 aircraft to run daily. All the transpac routes require 2 aircraft to operate on a daily frequency.
All the QF routes to Asia, other then SYD-HND, use 1 aircraft for a daily return frequency. HND uses 2 due to the aircraft sitting at HND all day.
All other international routes, other then LHR, uses 2 aircraft per route for daily frequency.
European routes tend to use 3 aircraft per route. The retiming of QF9/10 last year lowered the combined SYD/MEL-DXB-LHR requirement for 6 aircraft to 5.
Qantas
16 Mar 2015
Total posts 4
Perth needs to reintroduce QANTAS planes - can't wait until 2017-Do it now!
Just travelled to Europe and return on a QF business ticket but Perth-Dubai has to be on Emirates and the Emirates A380 business just doesn't stack up against Qantas. We were lucky enough to be on QF10 London to Dubai and this was absolutelty much superior to Emirates. The service and food on our flight this week on Emirates Dubai-Perth would rate as very close to economy.
12 Dec 2012
Total posts 1031
If you don't like EK, and don't want to back track to SYD/MEL for the QF LHR flights, then get QR, CX or MH (for oneworld) or one of the other E/SE Asian airlines.
Qantas
02 Sep 2015
Total posts 37
It would be nice if qantas think about using the 787 to fly melbourne to manila direct. Currently we have to go to Sydney to fly to manila. A 7.50 min flight to manila. Going through Sydney takes 13 hrs. Noel
24 Apr 2015
Total posts 128
SYD/MNL is an extremely low yield route. Qantas can't compete with Cebu Pacific, who are now the dominant carrier. Suggest Qantas may pull out of MNL all together.
10 Aug 2015
Total posts 113
Or perhaps not as it turns out...
15 Sep 2012
Total posts 93
Nobody has mentioned flights out of ADELAIDE, DARWIN and HOBART to Asian destinations, New Zealand and America. How about an Adelaide - Los Angeles nonstop or Hobart - Auckland- Los Angeles allowing Qantas to serve tasmania and return to NZ-US services? Darwin to Japan or Hong Kong perhaps. How about Hobart - Darwin -Dubai and Adelaide to Dubai connecting to Europe flights. The smaller airports could really boom froim this.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Sep 2012
Total posts 131
Hobart is served well enough from Melbourne. I'm assuming you are taking some of the michael in suggesting international flights orginate in Hobart?
23 Oct 2015
Total posts 1
The level of economic ignorance displayed by people who consider themselves 'business travellers' is astounding. Can someone please explain to why you are so obsessed with Qantas flying to Europe?
Qantas flight to Europe from Perth DO NOT MAKE ECONOMIC SENSE for several reasons. Firstl, the flight, even with a 787-9 is not as efficient as a single stop becuase of the additional fuel required to carry the addional fuel. This, coupled with the requirement of an extra set of crew simply make it a non-starter. Secondly, as busines travellers, you should know that frequency is important. For example, EK flies DXB to FRA 3 x daily, DXB to ROM; 3 x daily, even Hamburg gets 2 x daily flights. Is Qantas really going to compete with that? I don't think so.
Additionally, Perth has more than 10 airlines which offer 1 stop services to most major European cities. Did I mention that most of those airlines offer excellent premium cabins and have a lower cost base? Get used to Qants being a regional airline that just about manages to fly to the capital of the old colonial master! Deal with it!!
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Sep 2012
Total posts 131
Yet there are serious talks about additional QF flights to DXB which will then fly onto destinations possibly in Germany as EK are now capped at the number of flights into and out of that country.... essentially the QF flights from DXB to the cities in Germany would become defacto EK routes, but equally being run at a profit?
24 Apr 2013
Total posts 18
I think flying out of Perth is a really good idea. It keeps the stop in australia and the chance for a really good sleep on the 2nd leg.
Plus I think it could help add some tourism here too.
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