Boeing pitches 777X to Qantas for non-stop London, NY flights
By David Flynn, October 16 2017
Qantas wants to fly non-stop from Sydney and Melbourne to London and New York, and Boeing wants those passengers to be flying on its next-generation Boeing 777-8 jetliner.
The airline manufacturer says that the 777-8 – the long-range member of the 777X family, compared to the larger 777-9 – can already make direct flights from Sydney to London: despite this being a 17,000km route when Boeing lists the 777-8's reach at just over 16,100km.
"We know the airplane can make the range today," says Jim Freitas, Managing Director for Boeing's product marketing and analysis.
"It just depends on how many passengers you want to carry, the weight per passenger including their bags, and how much cargo you want.”
Going the distance
Boeing lists the capacity of the Boeing 777-8 as between 350 and 375 passengers in two cabin classes, Freitas says, in order to achieve its 16,100km range.
Boeing 777X concept business class seat
Boeing
Boeing
"It's based on a standard two-class interior but there is no airline in the world that flies a standard interior,' Freitas explains.
"They all have a custom interior, different classes and number of seats and seat weights – there are many variables.”
Boeing 777X concept business class cabin
Boeing
Boeing
Boeing’s 777-8 is up against the Airbus A350-900ULR in the race to build a globe-striding jet to Qantas’ spec, with Air New Zealand also eying the 777-8 for non-stop flights between Auckland and New York.
Qantas and Boeing have already begun crunching the numbers on right-sizing the 777-8 for these long-legged routes, says Qantas Group C EO Alan Joyce.
“Our ideal is to have all of our classes on board the aircraft, we know there’s a certain amount of business and premium economy and economy we have to have to make the economics work.”
Speaking at Boeing's Everett factory in Seattle, ahead of the delivery of the airline's first Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner, Joyce added that direct flights can “absolutely” be priced above stop-over routes.
“We can see that on Perth-London, but there is a limit on what that premium is, because prices still have to be competitive against other airlines.”
However, skipping a stop-over can also save money for the airline.
“We fly aircraft to New York every day but we have to stop at LA, so our economics are impacted by that,” Joyce said.
Beyond London and New York
Joyce says he wants Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane to host non-stop flights to New York and London, “and we’d love to be able to fly direct to Brazil, into Rio and Capetown.”
But such a far-reaching network map would require a substantial fleet.
“As with the Boeing 787s, eight is the minimum (to start with) but we’re like to have a lot more than that. You have to get into the teens for the aircraft to have a minimal viable base of operation.”
“We have to replace the A380s and the Boeing 747-400ERs, so some of these will replace existing aircraft but also allow us to change the network when we the take the aircraft in.”
David Flynn is visiting Seattle as a guest of Qantas
David Flynn is the Editor-in-Chief of Executive Traveller and a bit of a travel tragic with a weakness for good coffee, shopping and lychee martinis.
03 May 2013
Total posts 684
Unless Boeing gets its act together and makes long range and ultra long range aircraft as equally appealing to passengers as Airbus has done... and despite my loyalty to Qantas I wont be sitting on a 777 that far non stop. I already refuse to ever use the 787 Perth London. It's plain too far for such a small aircraft that's still not as quiet as the Airbus A380 or A350. I use the EK A380 or QR A380 - having whisper quiet ride, the space and bar to kill a few hours are real winning factors(let alone the other perks that the A380 as an aircraft and those carriers offer in terms of on the ground and in the air). I don't envy economy passengers in any case but I know they will be happier in an A380/A350 most of the time. So Boeing make your aircraft whisper quiet as the A380 and A350 then it will be true competition from a passenger perspective not just bean counters who crunch numbers.
15 Dec 2015
Total posts 20
I think you're forgetting that competition from the perspective of the "bean counters" is in fact more important.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
15 Feb 2017
Total posts 4
I too love the A380 but have only experienced the EK. How do you find the very different bar on QF?
03 May 2013
Total posts 684
Being VERY polite chalk and cheese. EK wins hands down. Two different leagues you might say. Even Qatar and Etihad leave Qantas 'lounge-bar' for dead.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
01 Mar 2013
Total posts 171
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Sep 2012
Total posts 131
The JQ 787 pilots who moved from the A330 were not impressed with their transition.
I spoke to a couple of pilots pre-departure when travelling to HKT - they described the 787 as a "pig" in comparison to to the Airbus.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Jul 2016
Total posts 105
Funny you say that. All the Qantas crews say that the Airbus planes always break down and are a pain to work on whereas the Boeing’s a much more favourable.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
10 Dec 2014
Total posts 43
I would hope the A380 is still flying through to the late 2020s/early 2030s as they approach 20. Then a 777-9 or A350-11 could be used to replace them, with a 350-400 seating capacity.
Qantas
19 Apr 2012
Total posts 1429
I think they well get another 10 years at least out to the A380. They will get their full depreciation.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Aug 2014
Total posts 213
Absolutely agree. The evidence is in the A380 cabin refurbishments now being undertaken -- an exercise typically undertaken by Qantas halfway through an aircraft's usable life.
United Airlines - Mileage Plus
17 Feb 2016
Total posts 44
I would settle for a bunch of used 777s to replace the 747s on the HKG and HNE route. Flew in Philip Island last week. Just as well it was an overnight flight..the IFE was a blast from the past for sure and of course no USB charging ports as they literally weren't in use when the cabin was last refitted. Although credit where due..the additional bathroom adjacent to the L2 door was a plus for Premium Economy travellers as most of the pyjama wearers used the forward Business / First room to change..
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Sep 2012
Total posts 131
AJ should be hassling CASA for Cape Town. The A350-1000 already has that range, so long as CASA allows for ETOPS as the Europeans and Americans have.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Jul 2017
Total posts 32
21 Apr 2017
Total posts 14
Borgetti’s point the other week was a valid one. Not how far, but how quick. 20 hrs in any plane is too long. I would like Joyce to push the airlines a little harder on time. No one wants to compete in a marathon before they start their holiday or work. They say time is precious.
03 May 2013
Total posts 684
Agree....Joyce(being a being a mathematician essentially) is always focused on range and cost cutting. Mr Joyce I don't profess to understanding airline operations but I do know as a very frequent traveller that experience is paramount on long/ultra long hauls. Using "big windows" and blue LED lighting hype is well and good but I'd much prefer SPACE, QUIETNESS, HIGH CABIN HUMIDITY and LOWER CABIN PRESSURE ALTITUDE SETTING. I know the 787(and maybe the 777) have have the last 2 but definitely not the first two. 2/4 isn't very good I'd say when you're investing so much in new aircraft. That's why the A380 and A350 currently excel from a passenger perspective they are definetly 4/4. Of course how you decide to configure your aircraft makes a difference too.
30 Aug 2017
Total posts 32
Here we are talking about 777x. It has around one foot wider cabin than A350 family. If airlines stick to 9 abreast in Y like SQ does on their current 777 fleet then it will be more spacious than any A350.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 619
@kabe100:
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
17 May 2015
Total posts 80
I've said it before and I'll say it again.... Direct flights from Sydney to Rio are a pipe dream until the Brazilian government changes the ridiculous visa requirements for Australians (currently tourist visas are valid for 3 months, cost around $250, you need to send your passport to Canberra, and you need to allow 3 weeks for processing).The Brazilians call it reciprocity, except that an Australian tourist visa for a Brazilian is half the price, can be valid for up to 12 months, and the process (including approval) is 100% online. Of the 60 odd countries I've visited, Brazil has the most expensive and cumbersome visa requirements for Australian tourists and this will put off many travellers and also make last minute travel impossible.
Air New Zealand - Airpoints
21 Jan 2016
Total posts 193
Singapore Airlines is going to be the launch customer for the A350-900ULR which will carry 170 passengers in mainly 'enhance' economy, premium economy and business class configuration.
The current specifications for the A350-900ULR is up to 9,700 nm (17,960 km) which currently meet Qantas's SYD/LHR requirement.
Boeing will have to match and do better than Airbus A350-900ULR with the B777X programme if is wants to get into the ultra long haul market. Looking what progress that Airbus has made with the A350-900/900ULR programme, they are will ahead of Boeing B777X programme.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 619
@krisdude:
05 May 2016
Total posts 616
What about First Class? Is that planned for the non-stop flights or does QF plan to stop offering First Class entirely.
28 Sep 2017
Total posts 7
Unfortunately most airlines have found that the economics of F don't work out with the exception of a few select routes throughout the world. The Australian market has not been among those for around the past 15-20 years.
04 May 2016
Total posts 34
So direct costs QF less but they will charge more ? Nice work bean counters. Now bugger off.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 619
@timster:
SilkAir - KrisFlyer
28 Mar 2017
Total posts 17
@Addicted2travel....you cannot! The QF bar on the A380 is best avoided if you have experienced the EK version.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Aug 2014
Total posts 72
If it not Boeing I'm not going...
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