UPDATE | Qantas has scrapped its planned flights between Perth and Johannesburg due to an ongoing stoush with Perth Airport over which terminal the service would use.
Perth Airport has insisted that Qantas use the main international T1 terminal for the seasonal service to South Africa.
However, Qantas planned to run the flights from the newly-developed international wing of its domestic T3 terminal, which is also used by the airline's Boeing 787 flights to London as well as the daily Boeing 737 service to Singapore.
This would also streamline connection for Qantas' domestic passengers flying to Perth to make the journey to Jo'burg.
"We had planned to operate a seasonal service this November to March, which would have put about 4,000 passengers a week through Perth," Alison Webster, CEO of Qantas International, told Australian Business Traveller on the sidelines of this week's IATA aviation summit in Sydney.
"We couldn’t operate it through Terminal 3 where the aircraft would in fact come in (from a domestic flight) and turn around, and towing (from T1) would make it completely logistically not okay."
Webster said that the Airbus A330 slated for the Perth-Johannesburg flight has since been "redeployed elsewhere" and will no longer be available for the South African route.
"It's a busy time of the year for us, so we actually got to a pinch point."
- David Flynn
EXCLUSIVE [April 11, 2018] | Qantas plans to expand its international footprint in Perth with non-stop flights to Johannesburg expected to launch in December 2018.
Internal airline schedules sighted by Australian Business Traveller but yet to be made public – and thus subject to change – indicate the direct flights would run four times per week from Friday December 7 on an Airbus A330-200 jet.
On Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays, flight QF65 would depart Perth at 12:45pm to reach South Africa around 5:25pm local time.
On the return journey, QF66 would depart Johannesburg at 10:25pm on the same calendar days, touching down in Perth at 2pm the following afternoon.
Again, those details are subject to change but Qantas' intention seems clear.
A spokesperson for Qantas told Australian Business Traveller "we’re always looking at new routes but we have nothing to announce at the moment."
Updated April 24: A Qantas spokesman has now confirmed the airline’s plans, saying “we’re in discussion with Perth Airport about a seasonal service to South Africa, and we’re hopeful we can make it a reality”.
The move would see Qantas take on Star Alliance member and Virgin Australia partner South African Airways and its daily Perth-Johannesburg flight, which Qantas used to sell to its own passengers via a codeshare agreement before winding up that deal in May 2014.
Qantas also runs Sydney-Johannesburg Boeing 747 flights six days each week as QF63 from Sydney and QF64 from Johannesburg, with plans to boost this to a daily service during July and August 2018 to cater to increased demand.
Go flat out to Jo'burg
It’s likely that business class passengers on Qantas' Perth-Johannesburg flights will be able to relax and unwind in Qantas’ new Business Suites (pictured below), which offer direct aisle access and convert into a fully-flat bed.
Two of the Roo’s Airbus A330-200 jets continue to fly with older SkyBeds in a 2-2-2 layout, often appearing on flights between Sydney and Beijing, although Qantas plans to upgrade these aircraft to the newer Business Suites.
The Johannesburg flights would depart from the new international wing of Qantas' Perth T3 terminal rather than the T1 international terminal.
However, eligible travellers would likely have to make do with Qantas' domestic business lounge at Perth's T4 terminal ahead of their flight as the newly-opened Perth International Transit Lounge is reserved for passengers on the Perth-London Boeing 787 service.
Chris is a a former contributor to Executive Traveller.
13 Sep 2016
Total posts 55
Great news, great AusBT scoop and great to see Qantas expanding its network once more. Although the SYD-JNB flight will become daily for July-August I would expect it to be cut back to maybe 3 times a week once the PER-JNB flight begins so that another Boeing 747 can be retired.
20 Feb 2012
Total posts 67
I reckon that all depends on how much cargo it hauls.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
30 May 2013
Total posts 382
Great news. With more international flights for Perth, hopefully including Paris and other European destinations in the future, I really hope Qantas look at a future Hobart-Perth service. It would be great to have these two capitals connected.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
23 Oct 2013
Total posts 699
While such connection would be great I can't see it happening due to the aircraft size required.
29 Aug 2013
Total posts 57
Qantas use 737's on all HBA-MEL services as of April. The comment that 737's aren't sustainable must be news to QF given they are exclusive to the HBA-MEL route for the foreseeable future and bigger news to VA given they use them exclusively between HBA and MEL, SYD, BNE.
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
I'm always happy to see new routes... but if the idea of HBA-PER was to connect to international services, a red eye wouldn't work.
29 Aug 2013
Total posts 57
Yep, I don't disagree that a red eye won't connect to the international services but I do think that is how HBA and PER *could* be connected. It's a suggestion more than anything else...
11 Apr 2018
Total posts 1
717s out of Hobart had a spike in cancellations starting late 2017 which we were told was due (in part) to maintenance. Our understanding was that QF added 737s to maintain the number of seats in/out of HBA, so it is not clear whether this 737 is a long-term thing or it will go back to 717s.
That said, as much as a HBA-PER flight would be nice, I don't see it happening. Better service from SYD-HBA would be more realistic - depending on daylight savings, a 09:30 departure means people arriving internationally after 07:30 can't make the connection. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to fly via MEL because of a crappy schedule.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
23 Oct 2013
Total posts 699
Correct indeed... All the people say that MEL-HBA is all 737's due to the surging demand are wrong.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
23 Oct 2013
Total posts 699
FYI the 717's will be back between HBA and MEL from 28 October. The 737's are currently in fix the public perception of Qantas in Hobart.
29 Aug 2013
Total posts 57
No doubt QF as issues with the 717’s and the 737’s helped repair things but they were also upgauged to 737 over summer due capacity needs given Tassie is booming with tourism.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
23 Oct 2013
Total posts 699
What's changed from yesterday?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
10 Apr 2012
Total posts 319
I’m guessing that the internal documents hadn’t been sighted yet yesterday so was unable to confirm anything in concrete...
24 Oct 2010
Total posts 2561
GDS entry appeared, disappeared, then we sighted internal docs with the details which gave us confidence on this. GDS entries alone can't always be taken as Gospel, although the "now you see it, now you don't" GDS pattern is familiar as this is exactly what happened with Qantas' Perth-Singapore Boeing 737 service :)
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
17 May 2015
Total posts 54
Was the "document" the link that I posted yestreday in the Community?
24 Apr 2012
Total posts 2431
chap6595: The link you posted wasn't to an internal document, and that didn't contain any information on QF65 out of Perth, so no, the internal docs confirming flight details came from our own sources.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
17 May 2015
Total posts 54
Thanks Chris...was just checking. Great work as normal.
08 Feb 2018
Total posts 166
I agree, great work. It's good to see a journalist outline the current situation and then update it as soon as new info comes to light, even if it is shortly after. Much better than speculating as many journalists seem to do
11 Apr 2018
Total posts 5
What's the difference in ETOPS between the 777 and A332. Wont QF have the same issue as VA did years ago with the longer flight times compared to the SAA A340?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
17 Aug 2012
Total posts 2199
No, because the great circle route between JNB and PER is further north than those to MEL and SYD, so the flight will be about an hour longer, rather than three hours longer as VA's unsuccessful MEL-JNB route.
31 Mar 2014
Total posts 397
South Africans flight time shows as 11:10 on the A340. With Qantas saying 11hours for their A330, it looks like ETOPS isn't an issue.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
02 Jan 2015
Total posts 70
Great news, although I Hope its operated by one of the tweeked A300-200's with an extra loo upfront :)
20 Sep 2017
Total posts 26
Is this really good news? Surely it is going to push out SAA and then prices will rise. I'm flying from SYD to JNB via PER with SAA on Saturday because Qantas direct cost $500 more pp at the time of booking. I'd much rather fly Qantas of course but not at $500 more (for my family of 5)!
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
If SAA pull out, it would be because they are currently a basket case. There should be enough demand for 4 x weekly flight between Perth - Jo-burg in addition to SAA's flights (supported by feed on both ends).
20 Sep 2017
Total posts 26
Should I be worried about my trip at the weekend? How much of a basket case are they?
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
No you shouldn't be worried about your trip.
19 Jan 2018
Total posts 87
The point is that the extra capacity may only be short-term, until one competitor is eventually squeezed out. Capacity will then be no greater, or perhaps even lower than the status quo.
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
That is assuming that there is no current unmet demand which will support extra services or QF doesn't reduce existing SYD-JNB services.
20 May 2015
Total posts 579
Why would it push out SAA? SAA have A330-200s as well, and can also offer connecting opportunities via Virgin Australia.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
26 Oct 2017
Total posts 6
Great News, I used to go via Sydney and Dubai.
01 Apr 2013
Total posts 6
Should be a PER-CPT so much better and it will allow a People to travel South Africa and and from Aus with Qantas and not needing to go back to Johberg
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
11 Oct 2014
Total posts 691
I agree entirely, tonyfisicaro86.
QF has flown the JNB market for years and it has taken a lot of time and effort to grow it slowly. A PER-CPT-PER route would introduce an entirely new route, an entirely new market (CPT) which is a 'world class' destination .. and open up Australian markets to a new African destination. It would also expand QF's brand and recognition in South Africa.
With the PER-JNB-PER route, QF will simply be 'mining' the same old market, one which they have flown in previous years.
JNB - same old, same old. CPT - now, that's a bit innovative .. and not a lot of risk, either.
19 Nov 2012
Total posts 44
That was the original plan but CPT is about to run out of water and that may have a big impact on tourism to the area.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Jun 2015
Total posts 57
I’m guessing QF is waiting to see how the water crisis in Cape Town will affect tourism demand and so they’re happy to wait.
30 Aug 2013
Total posts 437
I agree that PER-CPT would have been nice to see instead. CPT is an extremely popular destination for Australians and there are no direct flights from Australia to CPT vs up to 3 daily flights to JNB in future (QF x 2 and SAA x 1). Surely CPT direct is an untapped, underserved market?
18 Oct 2015
Total posts 27
Tony! Yes, nailed it! Seems like a wasted opportunity.
11 Dec 2015
Total posts 85
Looks like Qantas' Perth mini-hub is beginning to pay dividends. More destination equals (hopefully) more traffic overall.
30 Oct 2014
Total posts 13
SYD to PER as an extra flight makes sense as adding PER as a stopover to JNB adds many extra hours to the direct route from SYD which flies almost due South.
25 Jan 2013
Total posts 7
The advantage in flying from SYD is that the choices of direction depending on the weather. Sometimes we would fly past South Aus and many times past South West Tas. I enjoy sometimes seeing ice burgs around halfway. From Perth it is head wind most of the time.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Oct 2017
Total posts 35
Great news but none the less still not ideal. I don’t understand why QF insist on arriving early evening. Completely kills trying to connect to flights to other parts of SA.
20 Sep 2017
Total posts 26
Qantas timing may yet save SAA on the route as SAA arrive in JNB early morning. On this basis it seems like QF may offer true enhancement of choice rather than just be a play to squeeze out SAA
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
09 May 2011
Total posts 362
I hope this starts in MEL like the QF9/10!
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
14 Sep 2012
Total posts 382
Always great to see the QF network grow and more focus on Perth is great. What I'm struggling to get my head around is the lounge lotto at Perth. Can anyone explain why would PER-JNB use the domestic lounge and not the new International lounge? I know it's called a 'transit lounge' and the name is obvious but why have this concept at all ???
11 Apr 2018
Total posts 3
Qantas please split the flights between Johannesburg and Cape Town.
Singapore Airlines - KrisFlyer
07 Mar 2018
Total posts 18
Totally agree. Cape Town is a hugely desirable and relatively safe destination. I fly EK thru Dubai into Africa as the SAA product is not up to scratch and unreliable these days due to tech problems resulting in flight cancellations and long delays. Wont hurt to shake things up with some competition.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
17 Jul 2015
Total posts 10
QF used to fly 747s from PER-JNB as a tag on from Sydney in the 90s once a week. They flew PER-JNB via Harare in Zimbabwe once weekly also - I flew this route once 20 odd years ago!
20 Sep 2017
Total posts 26
Likewise my wife used to fly from Harare when she was an undergrad at UQ. Unfortunately qantas unlikely to reinstate Harare. They will not even sell tickets in Zimbabwe these days
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Dec 2016
Total posts 30
Great to see Qantas caring about Perth once again.
12 Aug 2015
Total posts 4
This would provide opportunity for pax ex ADL with good connex via PER ? Also perhaps ex MEL & BNE as alt. to terminal change required in SYD?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
23 Sep 2017
Total posts 162
Might QF ever consider adding P/E class to their A330’s?
24 Oct 2010
Total posts 2561
I'd suggest 99% not.
Singapore Airlines - KrisFlyer
07 Mar 2018
Total posts 18
I wish - better still roll out more 787-9s. Et Voila PE!
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
22 Jul 2015
Total posts 219
Great to create a WA hub.
11 Apr 2018
Total posts 6
What a disgrace Qantas still not offering any international flights out of Adelaide but yet you have daily to doha,dubai, KL, singapore, out of ADL, but qantas doesnt seem to have any interest or cant make it work, will refuse to fly them whenver i Can!!!!
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Dec 2016
Total posts 30
There isn't enough demand for passengers to fly to and from Adelaide for Qantas to provide international services. If there was, there would be more flights, and Qantas would have one or two international flights from Adelaide. Probably with 737s though.
11 Apr 2018
Total posts 6
I dunno, i struggle to find a J ticket to doha or dubai and to singapore out of adelaide.
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
If Adelaide was the gold mine you are suggesting it is, we'd be seeing those carriers flying their premium high capacity products to Adelaide. That is not happening. Your individual experience, does not necessarily represent the market experience.
11 Apr 2018
Total posts 6
Lol @ goldmine, thats just facts.
20 Sep 2017
Total posts 26
This dynamic is fairly normal given the modern hub and spoke airline dynamic. British Airways has few regional intercontinental flights yet Qatar flies from 6 airports (I think)
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
04 Nov 2017
Total posts 349
A full plane does not equal profit in the airline industry. QF may have likely found the Adelaide traffic is too "low yielding to support a SIN. Plus they don't have the right sized narrowbody aircraft (737) that can fly ADL-SIN without payload penalty and reasonable yields.
11 Apr 2018
Total posts 6
Good point DanV
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
@Crika - it isn't a disgrace, because QF is a business that purpose is to make money. If you are so keen for an Aussie airline to fly out of Adelaide, get the SA government to bankroll an airline... it's supposedly easy money after all.
11 Apr 2018
Total posts 6
Why not do it? And why should the SA gov help them out? They where loosing money for years on a price war with virgin? That didnt make sense either but they still did it.
20 Sep 2017
Total posts 26
Doesn’t the Q in Qantas stand for Queensland? Are they not the state carrier of Queensland rather than the national carrier? Surprised they even bother with a poxy outpost like Adelaide ;)
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Feb 2015
Total posts 124
Perhaps Qantas feel there is too much risk in ADL, due to the fact you cant keep the lights on? And when you do its the most expensive power in the world?
05 Oct 2017
Total posts 527
@Crika, to be honest, I don't see what the obsession is with flights to Singapore, which sees so many services from Australia. Singapore airlines already flies from Adelaide to SIN, Qantas used to I believe, if they were to return then I think there would certainly be an overcapacity. Perhaps flights to Denpasar (Bali) or Phuket would make sense, but doubtful that Qantas would be interested in operating such routes from Adelaide.
23 Oct 2014
Total posts 238
Airframes need to come from somewhere, less transcon inevitable if this route comes into place.
06 Dec 2017
Total posts 110
I have an idea for them and that is they can fly the earliest a330 ex melbourne over to perth domestically then use that aircraft to form the basis of this johannesburg service.connections should not be a real issue(i am from adelaide) although home to adelaide would this service make the last flight home connection or would overnighting in perth be a better option.if i was to go to south africa i am even willing to give SAA a go.anything is better than say a god awful transit time and paying mega bucks for the airport hotel on Singapore Airlines via Singapore.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
13 Dec 2012
Total posts 53
"However, eligible travellers would likely have to make do with Qantas' domestic business lounge at Perth's T4 terminal ahead of their flight as the newly-opened Perth International Transit Lounge is reserved for passengers on the Perth-London Boeing 787 service."
QF
21 May 2014
Total posts 24
It does as it is the current situation for lounge access at PER.
04 Dec 2013
Total posts 156
Has that been confirmed or is this AusBT speculation? Given that those arrangements were made before this new service was announced, it's hardly surprising the access rules didn't refer to it.
24 Apr 2012
Total posts 2431
Regarding lounge access: this is based on Qantas' published rules which restrict the Transit Lounge to passengers departing on specific flight numbers only (as opposed to Qantas' other lounges which apply more general access rules, such as the international business class lounge in Sydney). Qantas could always choose to amend its published rules at a later date, but since it was announced, Qantas has been adamant that the Transit Lounge is a 'London-only' lounge, and isn't open to passengers flying to other destinations with Qantas such as Singapore or Auckland.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Feb 2015
Total posts 124
I would imagine it would all be around times... it it was the same time as PER-LHR then they probably wouldn’t let the JNB passengers in the Transit lounge, however if its going to be empty then maybe they will..
24 Oct 2010
Total posts 2561
Rufus: lounge access not confirmed because route not confirmed, which is why we write " eligible travellers would likely have to make do..." (italics mine, for emphasis) rather than make an outright statement. However, given that other Qantas international flights apart from PER-LHR have to use the domestic lounges (see Chris' notes below) it's not a stretch to expect the same would apply here.
08 Feb 2018
Total posts 166
I guess they'll have codeshare/oneworld links via Comair (BA franchise) to CPT and other destinations.
20 Sep 2017
Total posts 26
I can see that the SAA PER-JNB flight was cancelled once in the last 4 months. (on 18th Jan). Does anyone know why? Does anyone know what they did with the pax affected?
30 Sep 2011
Total posts 45
The SA fights for QF are amongst it’s most profitable and busiest. Upwards of 30% of all passengers are going to CPT from AUS N vice a versa. Joyce has said CPT is one of there top routes for the 787 when available. Currently CPT is out of range east coast 747 to SA but not from PER but A330 can also do PER CPT! My money is on CPT a lot of internatioal airlines already only fly CPT and not JNB, the hell hole that it is and rife with corruption at immigration!
12 Apr 2018
Total posts 1
PER CPT PER would be perfect as CPT is becoming the hub in South Africa for traffic. All the major carriers are either going in already or plans to. very interesting move. The times are not great , to me most of the day is lost coming to South Africa
26 Feb 2015
Total posts 8
I hope that Qantas are going to fix up the Business class problem that they they have only 1 toilet for the entire cabin. They dole out pajamas but there is a perpetual queue for the solitary toot. Bad if you want to change into them but impossible when you want to change back into arrival clothes.
Good service but exceptional poor design and planning.
12 Apr 2018
Total posts 1
A good alternative from Per to Cpt is Air Mauritius, although their schedules require stayovers in Mru. Apparently capturing increasing #'s of pax due to concerns around SAA's maintenance programs
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
Congratulations to PER airport. Nothing quite like missing business opportunities by being completely inflexible and short-sighted.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
26 May 2014
Total posts 464
Alternatively, Perth Airport achieved their objective of discouraging Qantas from running a seasonal service that may have affected the viability of the year-round SAA service. Possibly more to this than the media plays.
07 Oct 2012
Total posts 1250
If that was their objective, they have succeeded. However, in medium term will QF want to deploy more 787 capacity through PER to CDG/elsewhere if they can't use their terminal. And if SA goes under, will the market not just respond to fill that gap? So what has PER really gained?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Feb 2015
Total posts 124
AUSBT can you get a partition started to lobby both the state government (although Mark is a weak premier and can't see past his nose) and the Airport... 100,000 signatories might get their atte
17 Sep 2015
Total posts 371
A "partition?" That would mean PER and ADL had a wall between them. You may mean "petition." Agree however that Mark is a weak Premier of WA.
04 Jun 2018
Total posts 19
Utterly disgraceful considering Perth Airport is currently facing a double digit percentage decline in international passengers. You would assume that other QF European services are off the table as well and as soon as QF has metal that can go direct from SYD/MEL-LHR we can no doubt kiss the PER-LHR service goodbye once more.
What makes this even worse is that the daily SAA service is rarely operating daily at the moment (more often 5-6 times a week), and I have no doubt that they would pull the pin as soon as this seasonal service commenced (or earlier considering their precarious financial position). It's a service that desperately needed competition as it is alarming how many people take massive detours via the middle east hubs or Mauritius just to avoid flying on SAA.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Jul 2016
Total posts 105
Way to go Perth Airport... We hope you keep enjoying your decline in international passengers.
15 Feb 2018
Total posts 43
I can’t believe how short sighted the Perth Airport is. Common sense tells you tha ALL Qantas services should operate from terminal three.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
23 Sep 2017
Total posts 162
PER Airport aligning itself with the dodo. ULR aircraft might well see it bypassed in future.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Oct 2011
Total posts 467
That will also be the end of any plans to fly PER-CDG or to somewhere in Germany. Idiotic bureaucrats strike again. At least there should be no more whining from people in Perth about how QF doesn't provide them with sufficient flights on its own metal - now they can see who is to blame!!
11 Apr 2018
Total posts 3
15 Feb 2018
Total posts 43
This is a loose loose situation for Perth Airport, Perth and Western Australian residents, and many others. Perth Airport administration, how short sighted and narrow minded are you?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Aug 2017
Total posts 17
Perth airport management have lots of nice animated you tube vids of their ideas but rather than doing they have just been talking.
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